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Old 02-24-2013, 02:30 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by TruSaint View Post
when does the DLINE do their 40's?
D-line and Linebackers are on Monday.

Here are the measurements so far:
http://www.windycitygridiron.com/201...d-measurements
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:40 PM   #92
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yea austin was the first WR of the day to run it

mayock has been gobblin tavon austin up this morning. its crazy to watch the transition in the NFL from big 6'4" WRs to little 5'9" guys that can run fast
Austin could end up being an early 2nd or late 1st.. I dont know if he is strong enough to be a #1 guy, but if he gets to a team like the texans he could change their team completely
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:43 PM   #93
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Wrong, and a very weak attempt a "gotcha".


Did you even read what I typed? My use of stats above is merely to illustrate a rhetorical point that Jordan's production was not better than Taylor's since that was Jack's criticism.


I always point out that projection is typically more important than production with the draft like with Clay Matthews and Jason Pierre Paul who's college production was also very dismal. The problem is that Jordan doesnt even project well because he struggles taking on blocks.
quick question.. I thought jordan was/is very athletic.. His problem that I saw during they year was his lack of strength.. So do you think if he does good on the bench.. Does his stock go on the rise
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:50 PM   #94
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quick question.. I thought jordan was/is very athletic.. His problem that I saw during they year was his lack of strength.. So do you think if he does good on the bench.. Does his stock go on the rise
Mighty hard to bench press with a torn labrum.
Quote:
Plagued by a right shoulder injury much of the season, Oregon pass rusher Dion Jordan will have surgery next week to repair a torn labrum. He plans to participate in every drill this week at the combine, excluding the bench press, and made a note to explain how excited he was to run.
2013 NFL Combine: Dion Jordan to have shoulder surgery - CBSSports
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:57 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFALCONS10 View Post
Wrong, and a very weak attempt a "gotcha".


Did you even read what I typed? My use of stats above is merely to illustrate a rhetorical point that Jordan's production was not better than Taylor's since that was Jack's criticism.


I always point out that projection is typically more important than production with the draft like with Clay Matthews and Jason Pierre Paul who's college production was also very dismal. The problem is that Jordan doesnt even project well because he struggles taking on blocks.
It is not a gotcha. Here's the thing: Either you are committed fully to focusing on stats or you are not regardless of what Jack Diesel may say. The other thing is struggling to take on blocks does not mean that Jordan won't be successful any more than running a fast 40 means that a guy cannot be caught in the open field. Every player has a weakness or an area that can stand improvement. Jordan is explosive off the snap, he gets good pop, he is very fluid, and has great change of direction skills--all of which are things that can translate. He has to improve his hands usage, which is something that can be taught as we have seen with Chandler Jones. And if he improves his hands use, it will help him get off blocks better.

There is a reason why scouts across the board are high on this kid. I am not going to say that you are incapable of being right and everyone else is wrong. It happens, heck sometimes more than people are willing to admit. But it seems to me that you have fallen in love with Taylor and just do not like Jordan as a player. And so however you can justify your argument on both players--one in favor, one in disfavor--is what you do. But you cannot point to stats, even if it is meant as a response to Jack Diesel, when Ansah's stats are lacking. And you cannot point to Jordan's struggles with getting off blocks without talking about Taylor's lack of fluidity, lack of explosion, lack of power/strength, and his own inability to get off blocks.

All of these things need to be placed in the proper context. It is okay even to say "call it a gut feeling" but you believe that Taylor will get stronger, add more bulk and be a better player. Heck, I am not a huge fan of DaMontre Moore so I know what it is like not to like a prospect others are in love with. But if someone asked me a question about my criticisms of Moore, and then pointed to me liking Jordan, hopefully I do not dump on Moore without pointing out that Jordan is not a finished product himself. So, it was not a "gotcha" moment.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:57 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by NOFALCONS10 View Post
Mighty hard to bench press with a torn labrum.
2013 NFL Combine: Dion Jordan to have shoulder surgery - CBSSports
Appreicate it.. Info like this I missed..I see alot of draft predictions saying that jordan will fall to us.. I like his potential *size and speed* but Im interested to compare his to asua.. *bad spellin*
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:06 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by NOFALCONS10 View Post
D-line and Linebackers are on Monday.

Here are the measurements so far:
2013 NFL Combine: Defensive End measurements - Windy City Gridiron
Thanks
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:11 PM   #98
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surprises of the day:
EJ Manuel helped his draft stock with his throws
Geno Smith did impress me and andy reid could turn him into his newest donnovan mcnabb
As of today it looks to be gino then everyone else
tavon austin could be a steal on the right team and elevate them..
cordell patterson is big and fast.. He looks the part of a number 1 guy
ryan swoope is a beast..he is going to MAKE a team draft him
kniles davis could be a darren mcfadden type

these are just a few suprises i have seen or that caught my eye today
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:26 PM   #99
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It is not a gotcha. Here's the thing: Either you are committed fully to focusing on stats or you are not regardless of what Jack Diesel may say. The other thing is struggling to take on blocks does not mean that Jordan won't be successful any more than running a fast 40 means that a guy cannot be caught in the open field. Every player has a weakness or an area that can stand improvement. Jordan is explosive off the snap, he gets good pop, he is very fluid, and has great change of direction skills--all of which are things that can translate. He has to improve his hands usage, which is something that can be taught as we have seen with Chandler Jones. And if he improves his hands use, it will help him get off blocks better.

There is a reason why scouts across the board are high on this kid. I am not going to say that you are incapable of being right and everyone else is wrong. It happens, heck sometimes more than people are willing to admit. But it seems to me that you have fallen in love with Taylor and just do not like Jordan as a player. And so however you can justify your argument on both players--one in favor, one in disfavor--is what you do. But you cannot point to stats, even if it is meant as a response to Jack Diesel, when Ansah's stats are lacking. And you cannot point to Jordan's struggles with getting off blocks without talking about Taylor's lack of fluidity, lack of explosion, lack of power/strength, and his own inability to get off blocks.

All of these things need to be placed in the proper context. It is okay even to say "call it a gut feeling" but you believe that Taylor will get stronger, add more bulk and be a better player. Heck, I am not a huge fan of DaMontre Moore so I know what it is like not to like a prospect others are in love with. But if someone asked me a question about my criticisms of Moore, and then pointed to me liking Jordan, hopefully I do not dump on Moore without pointing out that Jordan is not a finished product himself. So, it was not a "gotcha" moment.

The problem as I see it with you 60, is that

1) you seem to be emotionally attached to Jordan in some strange way

2) the level of attachment to Jordan almost seems to extend to the point of excluding all possibility that there might be similar players available later in the draft. It's like drafting Jordan is some do or die proposition for you.


As much as I like Ansah, I'm at least willing to allow for and analyze the possibility that similar players may be found later like

Corey Lemonier
Devin Taylor
Armonty Bryant
& and Steven Means (Buffallo).



Also to address your comment above, Jordan does not get "good pop" and fails to even overpower TE's with a solid hand punch with any consistency. His legs are reed-thin and Im not confident that run-stopping ability is completely physical. It is an aggressive mentality that supplements physical capacity that you either wake up in the morning with like Junior Seau or you don't, even if you do have the size.



Your comment about Taylor illustrates perfectly the tunnel-vision that you seem to have developed for Jordan as a prospect. It's like you're incapable of exploring other options outside of the first round even though most good 3-4 linebackers come to the league from that range.


Case in point:
Quote:

Taylor's lack of fluidity, lack of explosion, lack of power/strength, and his own inability to get off blocks.
How much did you even research that statement before pressing enter?

Quote:
Devin Taylor, DE, South Carolina: The "other" defensive end for the Gamecocks, often overshadowed by Melvin Ingram and Jadeveon Clowney had a nice day of practice. The first thing you notice with Taylor is he's enormous at 6'8" and almost 270 pounds. He was once "the guy" at end for South Carolina, but kind of fell through the wayside. In one-on-one drills Taylor overpowered a lot of the tackles, including flat out throwing one to the ground on the drill. Taylor is a bit stiff in his hips and doesn't seem to have that bend you look for in an end, but if he shows he's strong enough might interest teams as a strongside end at the NFL level.
East-West Shrine Game 2013 practice report: Devin Taylor, Terron Armstead turning heads - SBNation.com
Quote:
The rising senior is a versatile player as well. Taylor can play with his hands on the ground, he can stand up and he is extremely comfortable dropping into pass coverage.
College Football 2012 Top 150 Players: No. 91 Devin Taylor South Carolina DE | Bleacher Report







You don't want to explore other options because for you there doesn't seem to be any. It is either Dion Jordan or nothing at all.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:38 PM   #100
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starting to look like dion jordan, mingo and jarvis jones will be there when we pick.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:41 PM   #101
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I want Ansah. I think he'll be the best passrusher and is already good against the run. I can't wait to see what these guys do at the combine tomorrow.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:13 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFALCONS10 View Post
The problem as I see it with you 60, is that

1) you seem to be emotionally attached to Jordan in some strange way

2) the level of attachment to Jordan almost seems to extend to the point of excluding all possibility that there might be similar players available later in the draft. It's like drafting Jordan is some do or die proposition for you.


As much as I like Ansah, I'm at least willing to allow for and analyze the possibility that similar players may be found later like

Corey Lemonier
Devin Taylor
Armonty Bryant
& and Steven Means (Buffallo).



Also to address your comment above, Jordan does not get "good pop" and fails to even overpower TE's with a solid hand punch with any consistency. His legs are reed-thin and Im not confident that run-stopping ability is completely physical. It is an aggressive mentality that supplements physical capacity that you either wake up in the morning with like Junior Seau or you don't, even if you do have the size.



Your comment about Taylor illustrates perfectly the tunnel-vision that you seem to have developed for Jordan as a prospect. It's like you're incapable of exploring other options outside of the first round even though most good 3-4 linebackers come to the league from that range.


Case in point:
How much did you even research that statement before pressing enter?

East-West Shrine Game 2013 practice report: Devin Taylor, Terron Armstead turning heads - SBNation.com
College Football 2012 Top 150 Players: No. 91 Devin Taylor South Carolina DE | Bleacher Report







You don't want to explore other options because for you there doesn't seem to be any. It is either Dion Jordan or nothing at all.
Yes, I am so emotionally attached to Jordan that I have considered Mingo, Floyd, Richardson, Vacarro, Ogletree, Fisher (though he won't be there), and even Jones (if not for the injury concerns) for our first round pick.

Further, I am so emotionally attached to Jordan that I have praised other guys who I think fit well into the 3-4, most notably Chase Thomas, Michael Buchanan, and even a guy you mention--Corey Lemonier.

See, in my mind, all of these guys are Dion Jordan. I cannot see anyone on our team but Jordan. I cannot evaluate any player beyond the first round but Jordan. You have me pegged!

Bottom line is, I like Jordan as a prospect and disagree with your evaluation of him. People do that, you know?! Does that mean he is the only player I like in this draft at OLB? Well, according to you, yes, since you have spoken for me and determined that it is Jordan or bust even though I have talked about other prospects. Maybe, just maybe, you seem to know everything I say about Jordan because 80% of your time has been spent the past few weeks talking about how much you do not like him as a prospect.

Now, let's move on to Devin Taylor. I love how you single out this moment from the East-West Shrine practice. Let me say, I am happy that Taylor performed well. In fact, I am happy when players I do not like prove me wrong. Why? Because at the end of the day, even if I do not like a player based on my evaluations of him, it does not mean that I do not want him to be successful--unless he goes to the Falcons! But other than that, I want to see a Damontre Moore prove that is a top-flight player even if I do not see the top 15 prospect that some scouts deem him to be. So if Taylor ends up becoming a great player, that is wonderful for him and his family as well as the team who drafts him.

What I find curious, however, is that you use the East-West Shrine practice as if it is a complete picture of the young man. First, can you name me a tackle prospect at the East-West Shrine game--outside of Terron Armstead--that is expected to go in the first two rounds? I just need one. I mean, you act as if he dominated Luke Joeckel, Eric Fisher, and Lane Johnson. Second, I seem to notice that you love placing certain things into larger font. I am amazed, however, that you did not place into larger font the very next statement after you bolded the part about Taylor knocking tackles back and showing power. It is the one about him having stiff hips, which might be an indication of his lack of fluidity.

Finally, since I did not do my homework...err, research my statement before posting it the first time, I will do it this time around.

Devin Taylor's weaknesses:


Quote:
Weaknesses: Not a quick-twitch athlete and little snap explosion, especially with his hand on the ground. Tight hips, ankles and lacks natural fluidity to burst to the play, struggling to smoothly redirect. Lean-muscled and will get pushed around, lacking natural power on his frame.
Lacks a feisty temperament and would like to see more of a sense of urgency from him. Good length but needs to generate more power from his upper body. Lacks ideal bulk and might be tapped out in terms of growth potential. Too lethargic at times and doesn't always finish. Declining production the past few years is a red flag.
Devin Taylor, DE, South Carolina, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Then there is this report: http://www.milehighreport.com/2013/2...denver-broncos But since KaptainKirk is about as credible as the Bleacher Report you quote from, I will not include his thoughts. But he seems spot on in some of his criticisms even if he is, like us, no expert.

Russ Lande especially loves him. See below:

Quote:
There is little question that Taylor looks the part of an NFL player “on the hoof” at over 6’6, with a muscular physique and long arms. However, the issue is that he is a “tweener” and does not play aggressively on a consistent basis, both of which have limited his production. In today’s NFL to play defensive end in a 43 defense you must be productive rushing the passer, while in a 34 scheme a defensive end has to consistently play strong at the point of attack, but Taylor has not proven he can make an impact doing either.
Taylor lacks the first step quickness and explosive burst to threaten the corner as a speed rusher and does not change directions fast enough to defeat pass blocker with quick pass rush moves. Additionally, while he has the natural strength to be an impact “bull rusher,” too often he gets upright and high rushing the passer and does not use hands aggressively to jolt pass blocker, which limits his strength as a pass rusher. Lacking consistency as a pass rusher makes him much better suited to be tried as a defensive end in a 34 defense, but then other issues with his play become concerns.
Overrated Prospect - Devin Taylor | National Football Post

And please do not bother to read the rest of Lande's report. It is not pretty at all!
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:21 PM   #103
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Jordan and Ansah will be the two biggest busts in the draft and they are the main 2 everyone is slobbering all over. Hopefully they both get picked ahead of the Saints that way we can get lucky for once defensively and find a real stud.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:26 PM   #104
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How come you don't care that Jordan who is considered a first rounder production is not better than Taylor who can likely be had for a 3rd?


Jordan's lack of production doesn't seem to bother you in the least. If you want a 6'6 250 coverage linebacker like Manny Lawson, why not just sign Manny Lawson and be done with it?

Manny Lawson - Cincinnati Bengals - 2013 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com (free agent this year).


No top overall pick required.

And just like with Martez Wilson, size and measurables aren't the be all, end all of evaluation. Just because a prospect has size doesn't mean that he's necessarily physical or uses it well.

Im not the only person to notice that he doesn't excel against the run.

2013 NFL Draft Prospect Profile: Dion Jordan | DraftBrowns.com
In all that research did you consider he was playing at 226 pounds? That's the size of a small linebacker. Of course he'll struggle shedding blocks. He's also much more explosive than Manny Lawson and would help fix our biggest problem in what is a passing league, our pass rush.

I also noticed you failed to highlight this little gem while you were highlighting all the instances where he struggled. Selective reading?

Quote:
He is able to fight off a couple of blocks for run stops near the LOS.
Here's an article on Taylor that you might want to read.

Quote:
Taylor lacks the first step quickness and explosive burst to threaten the corner as a speed rusher and does not change directions fast enough to defeat pass blocker with quick pass rush moves. Additionally, while he has the natural strength to be an impact “bull rusher,” too often he gets upright and high rushing the passer and does not use hands aggressively to jolt pass blocker, which limits his strength as a pass rusher. Lacking consistency as a pass rusher makes him much better suited to be tried as a defensive end in a 34 defense, but then other issues with his play become concerns.

In the world of “line play” the two important rules are – “first hands win” and “low man always wins.” Taylor’s lack of aggressiveness with hands allows offensive linemen to “get a good fit” on him and they are able to tie him up and keep him out of the play too easily. By popping upright at the snap and taking on blockers high at the point of attack, Taylor loses leverage and allows himself to be tied up and driven off the ball too easily by run blockers. By playing without leverage, Taylor also gets stopped in his tracks when he tries to “bull rush.”

While Taylor’s lack of explosiveness and inconsistent technique limit his production, more concerning and debilitating are his inconsistent motor and often passive style of play. He does not attack the blocker in front of him or chase hard after the play to make plays in backside pursuit. His tendency to stop fighting to defeat blockers once they get ahold of him, leads to him being tied up and eliminated from the play way too easily for a player with his talent.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:33 PM   #105
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In all that research did you consider he was playing at 226 pounds? That's the size of a small linebacker. Of course he'll struggle shedding blocks. He's also much more explosive than Manny Lawson and would help fix our biggest problem in what is a passing league, our pass rush.

I also noticed you failed to highlight this little gem while you were highlighting all the instances where he struggled. Selective reading?



Here's an article on Taylor that you might want to read.

Show me clips, anything, where Dion Jordan is dominating offensive tackles on any level especially in the run game. I mean articles are one thing but lets be a bit more thorough in our analysis. there's enough tape of Jordan out there where you can find something that illustrates his explosiveness, power and the potential that you think that he's apparently oozing with in the run game. Surely?
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