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Old 04-21-2017, 09:14 AM   #1
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Barnett Fans--Why Isn't He the Next Jarvis Jones

I was on the road much of yesterday and heard a bit of Mike Detillier on a Lafayette radio station and in the evening Phil Savage on Sirius NFL.

Detillier is a huge fan of Barnett. But he was a big fan of Jarvis Jones several years ago. On KPEL yesterday, a caller who can be argumentative expressed at length his concerns over Barnett. It was the most defensive and personal I have ever heard Detillier get on the radio. And the argument that Mike fell back on was simply production--he broke Reggie White's sack record at Tennessee, and he played well against Cam Robinson (whom some project as a guard or right tackle, rather than a left tackle).

In the evening, I heard Phil Savage identify Barnett as one of the players who might go later in the draft than some think. Savage noted Barnett's poor combine performance, questioned how many moves Barnett has when rushing the quarterback (he did not call him a one-trick pony, but that was the overall impression), and seemed somewhat skeptical as to how Barnett would do against NFL tackles.

As to college production, I have looked at what Jarvis Jones did at Georgia and what Barnett did at Tennessee. Jones had superior numbers. Jones played two years at Georgia. Over that time, he recorded 28 sacks and 43.5 tackles for a loss. Barnett, in his last two years at Tennessee, recorded 24 sacks and 31.5 tackles for a loss. The average per year for Jones was 14 sacks and 21.75 TFL. The average per year for Barnett, who played three years, was 11 sacks and 17 TFL.

In size, Barnett is one inch taller and 11 pounds heavier. Jones has a very slight edge in arm length. Their combine numbers were very comparable--and very mediocre--with the exception of the excellent three-cone time posted by Barnett.

My thinking is that at a pick as high as 11, I want to check off as many boxes as possible, and I want both college production and athleticism. For me, at 11, there are too many boxes that can't be checked off. (And I would say the same for Taco Charlton, though for different reasons. I do not want him at 11 either).
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:17 AM   #2
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I think that's a good comparison. Barnett might be better due to his technique, but I don't see him having a high ceiling at all. Don't want him at 11 either.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:24 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ in Lafayette View Post
I was on the road much of yesterday and heard a bit of Mike Detillier on a Lafayette radio station and in the evening Phil Savage on Sirius NFL.

Detillier is a huge fan of Barnett. But he was a big fan of Jarvis Jones several years ago. On KPEL yesterday, a caller who can be argumentative expressed at length his concerns over Barnett. It was the most defensive and personal I have ever heard Detillier get on the radio. And the argument that Mike fell back on was simply production--he broke Reggie White's sack record at Tennessee, and he played well against Cam Robinson (whom some project as a guard or right tackle, rather than a left tackle).

In the evening, I heard Phil Savage identify Barnett as one of the players who might go later in the draft than some think. Savage noted Barnett's poor combine performance, questioned how many moves Barnett has when rushing the quarterback (he did not call him a one-trick pony, but that was the overall impression), and seemed somewhat skeptical as to how Barnett would do against NFL tackles.

As to college production, I have looked at what Jarvis Jones did at Georgia and what Barnett did at Tennessee. Jones had superior numbers. Jones played two years at Georgia. Over that time, he recorded 28 sacks and 43.5 tackles for a loss. Barnett, in his last two years at Tennessee, recorded 24 sacks and 31.5 tackles for a loss. The average per year for Jones was 14 sacks and 21.75 TFL. The average per year for Barnett, who played three years, was 11 sacks and 17 TFL.

In size, Barnett is one inch taller and 11 pounds heavier. Jones has a very slight edge in arm length. Their combine numbers were very comparable--and very mediocre--with the exception of the excellent three-cone time posted by Barnett.

My thinking is that at a pick as high as 11, I want to check off as many boxes as possible, and I want both college production and athleticism. For me, at 11, there are too many boxes that can't be checked off. (And I would say the same for Taco Charlton, though for different reasons. I do not want him at 11 either).
You make a lot of good points in your post. One thing about production is it doesn't always translate to the NFL. A better comparison in regards to production was Michael Sam. Sam put up monster numbers but he wasn't athletic enough to make the same impact in the NFL. Prototype and athleticism does matter when you talk about being a 1st rd pick.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:26 AM   #4
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Another good point. Michael Sam and Jarvis Jones both had as much or more production in the SEC than Barnett. It's rare to find elite pass rushers that are not elite athletes.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:27 AM   #5
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What impressed me about Barnett was the bowl game or last home game where he was 3 sacks away from whites record towards the end of the game. He flat out hustled and balled for a whole quarter rushing the qb and was clearly exhausted.

That said, will he show that hustle with no record on the line.

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Old 04-21-2017, 09:27 AM   #6
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Man, it is so hard to predict how a DL will translate to the NFL. Many have tried, many have failed, including coaches. Anyone who says any player is a "can't miss" is setting himself up for embarrassment.

Best thing to do is look at physical attributes, measurables, injuries, energy, and interview. If all are good, you take a chance, and it is still about 50/50. Those not privy to an interview is at an even greater disadvantage.

So I chicken out. I'll just say we need an outside pass rusher and leave it to SP.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:29 AM   #7
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I want someone with elite potential. I want someone teams worry about coming into our games. Someone with the potential to destroy a team's hopes with a 3 sack game and numerous pressures on the QB.

If a comparison I can find for you is someone like Von Miller, Khalil Mack, JJ Watt, or any of the elite pass rushers of the past, that's who I want.

Derek Barnett broke Reggie White's record, but he's no Reggie White. Reggie White was a powerful, quick, and faster than he looked freak.

Barnett isn't elite anywhere unless you want to count hand technique. Which does go for a lot.

I'm just not his biggest fan. If we take him, I'd get over it. But Haason Reddick is looking like the guy to get.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:30 AM   #8
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I lump Barnett in with the rest of the guys possibly available at 32/42: Taco Charlton, Tim Williams, Tyus Bowser, T.J. Watt, Tanoh Kpassagnon, Jordan Willis, Charles Harris, Tak McKinley, Malik McDowell, Demarcus Walker. All good college players, but with question marks athletically or in at least one case, character-wise.

While I respect Mike Detillier tremendously, even the best scouts and GMs are wrong MOST of the time.

My concerns with Barnett are his short arms along with his absolutely poor 40-time performances despite being somewhat under-sized weight wise as an edge player in a 4-3. Also, watching the tape, a lot of his sacks seemed to be of the "accidental" or coverage sack variety. By accidental, I mean the pocket collapses or the coverage was great and the QB just so happens to step into Barnett rather than Barnett beating his man off the snap with a speed rusher or an impressive spin move or bull rush. He also had a few unblocked sacks or sacks that came as the result of poorly executed read-option play fakes.

Furthermore, anyone that's been paying close attention to me these past few years (all 2 of you), knows that I put a lot on 40-times of EDGE pass rushers (it's not as important for interior rushers). Typically, guys running in the 4.9s or close to 4.9s don't succeed consistently. There is a documented history of this. Yes, I know these guys aren't being asked to run straight line 40s on the field, but a lot can be learned from this litmus test for pass rush prospects about their burst off the snap and acceleration ability versus NFL tackles. It was the main reason I absolutely hated Jarvis Jones as a first round prospect back when he came out.

There are a couple of outliers, such as Terrell Suggs, but he's a guy that had 24 sacks in his final year at Arizona St. and showed himself as a superior player on tape. James Harrison is another outlier type. If you look at 40 times of great pass rushers from the edge position though, you'll see that not many of them are running 4.8s and 4.9s. I would say though that Barnett's 3-cone may off-set the poor 40-time, but I'd have to do more studying to see how that stacks up with outlier guys like Suggs and Harrison.

Breaking Reggie White's career sack record is impressive, but that's more so a product of him starting 3 seasons and playing consistent ball than him obliterating it over the course of 1 or 2 seasons. 32 sacks in 3 seasons as a full-time starter is consistent and shows that he was a good college player obviously, but the accomplishment is nothing really "godly." Saying he broke Reggie White's career sack record makes it sound more impressive than it really is.

All that said, if he is there at 32, I am definitely down with selecting him based on potential. I just believe pick 11 is a little too rich for him and we could do better elsewhere. Your final sentence in the O.P. summed my thoughts up well in regards to Barnett, Charlton, and almost any other pass rusher not named Garrett or Thomas:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ in Lafayette View Post
My thinking is that at a pick as high as 11, I want to check off as many boxes as possible, and I want both college production and athleticism. For me, at 11, there are too many boxes that can't be checked off. (And I would say the same for Taco Charlton, though for different reasons. I do not want him at 11 either).
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:33 AM   #9
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I'm not a huge Barnett fan, but I wouldn't be upset if we took him. First off, according to the NFL.com combine measurements, Jarvis Jones was 245 lbs and Derek Barnet was 259 lbs. That's a pretty huge difference when it comes to the position they play, especially considering Barnett could add a few pounds once he is a pro. Jones was more the prototypical size for a 3-4 OLB and Barnett is the right size for a 4-3 speed rushing DE.

As for the college production, you can say that about anyone. Production in college doesn't always translate into production in the pros. But production is still an important metric. With both players they had good production against high level competition. It's not a guarantee they will continue to do it in the NFL, but it's something you like to see.

Finally, there's the spinal stenosis issue that could limit the career of Jarvis Jones. This isn't a factor with Barnett. It doesn't necessarily affect production, but it certainly affects draft stock knowing the guy you are drafting might have to hang it up early.

Barnett is not my first choice for that pick, but I think he's a safe pick if none of the other big defensive players fall. His ceiling may not be that high, but I think he can come in and contribute on a d-line with Rankins, Fairley, and Jordan.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:36 AM   #10
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Let's start by saying that they are totally different players.

Barnett is a complete defensive end. His game is good against the run and pass, and more important, it is his instincts and recognition what makes him special.

I see a lot of Will Smith in Barnett.

Jarvis Jones may be faster, but Barnett is such a better player.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:37 AM   #11
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if we take barnett over tj watt, i'll lose it.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:37 AM   #12
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Key word to remember when describing Barnett is character. Described as having good character.

He will be the pick at 11 if he is still there.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:39 AM   #13
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Key word to remember when describing Barnett is character. Described as having good character.

He will be the pick at 11 if he is still there.
You might find yourself angry-surprised when we take Taco Charlton over him.


Or happy when we take Haason Reddick over him.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:45 AM   #14
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To me it looked like Barnett made hay when he anticipated the snap. When he reacted to the snap, he didn't get off well. He played okay but he didn't have near as much impact.

I don't think he's going to be able to anticipate the snap as well against professional quarterbacks. He'll be a good rotational player, but he won't be a sack machine.
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