Florio: Latest bounty report exposes another flaw in bounty evidence

[Flipx99]

Does anyone else recall that after McCray knocked the crap out of Favre in the NFCCG that SP pulled him to the sideline and chewed him out? Hardly consistent with the allegations.

[Cowcontrol777]

Originally Posted by Gore

When did the NFL say that the ledger whas the 'proof' that the Saints had a pay for injuries plan?



We dont know what the NFL has so Id be careful. Until 2 weeks ago people here said that the NFL didnt have something like the ledger, that money was only paid for turnovers but not for "whacks" or if a player got injured. Now there is the ledger, we know people got paid for whacks and Shanle admitted the "existence of rewards for legal hits that led to injuries."



I think because that's Goodell's unfair way of handling things. He singled out the Patriots too even though experts said that what the Patriots did was not uncommon around the NFL. That's terribly frustrating for the teams that Goodell makes an example of but apparently the owners like that because it saves 31 other teams from getting punished too.

Wow. Gore is playing devil's advocate, what a shocker!

[Jekylz Hyde]

Originally Posted by Gore

When did the NFL say that the ledger whas the 'proof' that the Saints had a pay for injuries plan?



We dont know what the NFL has so Id be careful. Until 2 weeks ago people here said that the NFL didnt have something like the ledger, that money was only paid for turnovers but not for "whacks" or if a player got injured. Now there is the ledger, we know people got paid for whacks and Shanle admitted the "existence of rewards for legal hits that led to injuries."



I think because that's Goodell's unfair way of handling things. He singled out the Patriots too even though experts said that what the Patriots did was not uncommon around the NFL. That's terribly frustrating for the teams that Goodell makes an example of but apparently the owners like that because it saves 31 other teams from getting punished too.

I can't say I've heard the NFL cite the ledger as "proof", but if that ledger isn't the the so-called "proof", why do people keep referring to it?

I'll agree that we don't know what the NFL has, but that is EXACTLY what we've been asking for. Show me "proof" and I'll shut up, take these punishments like a man, and move on to other topics. Otherwise, you yourself have implied the ledger is "proof" of a bounty system. Please clarify whether the so-called ledger that no one is allowed to see constitutes "proof". According to you, the NFL hasn't said it's proof (and I choose to believe you), but in the very next paragraph you state "Now there is the ledger, we know people got paid for whacks..." (this statement is a FACT...look above at your own words). I'm confused...if the ledger isn't the so-called "proof", why is it being used to bolster your argument about bounties? You can't have it both ways.

I'll wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph...the Patriots were unfairly singled out, but that doesn't make their punishment right, and it certainly doesn't make the Saints punishment justified. And I don't remember ANY Patriots coaches, players, or GMs being suspended for anything, let alone for entire seasons. So if the Patriots were unfairly singled out, the Saints incident has been "SUPERSIZED", as the portions keep getting bigger & bigger. And IMO, what the Patriots allegedly did (if true!) was worse, because they attempted to gain an unfair advantage before they even stepped onto the field; what the Saints did (if true!) at least represents an attempt to gain an advantage face-to-face & man-to-man while on the field during the true course of the game!

[AceTW]

Originally Posted by Gore

Actually it's not a flaw in the evidence or the NFL's "narrative". The NFL never said that every time an opposing player got injured a Saints player got rewarded.

Oh, that's the idea they've been trying to convey though. Even without 'saying it', they've made every effort possible to make people believe it and I don't think anyone with the ability of critical thought can deny that.

[jmt225]

I love how the morons who comment there try to tear apart the article since Jeff Backus isn't Calvin Johnson, but when that ledger had a couple of no-named bums, it didn't matter; it was all the proof people needed to be sure that these allegations against the Saints were true.

[StRonaldo]

Shanlee said from his own mouth, it was a pay for performance program and not a pay for injury program. That no one would have done that on the defense. Thats from the TP video. Also , i don't believe i responded to a Troll on here to argue.

[Doug5984]

heh, this thread has a familiar ring to it.

Florio: Evidence against the Saints not that great

Saints Fans: Thank you, that's what we've been saying

Gore: Bounty Gate happened exactly as the NFL described it, and I will make it my personal mission to convert all Saints fans to that line of thinking

Everyone: :facepalm:

----------

We get it, you buy their story- most of us here don't. The reason we don't is we watched every game, some of them multiple times. The Saints did not go out there with an intent to injure, if you watched the games you'd see that. There were no hits to intentionally cause injuries outside of the normal game of football. Pay for performance does include pay for big hits, a big hit is like a great catch for the defense, thats what those guys live for.

Sheldon Brown's hit on Reggie Bush way back when- I promise you he got some reward for that hit, be it applause or simple recognition in the locker room- that's all these bounties are. Recognition of great plays by the players. $200 for a guy making $500,000 a game- that's a drop in the bucket- it's simply another way to recognize the players for great plays. The fact that they were penalized for bad plays and penalties further proves this point. Same can be said for hit by Donte Whitner on Peirre- that was a game changing football play, that play alone changed the course of the game. He got some form of recognition for that play.

Goodell started this mess by himself using the word bounty, when that was simply not true. Every piece of evidence that has come out so far has taken us further from Goodell's "truth", if the evidence they have is simply a pay for performance scheme then we are guilty of that, but the punishment does not fit the crime. I think everyone agrees we had a pay for performance (as do most teams).

[yuyi64]

Originally Posted by Gore

You dont have to argue.

You're right, we don't have to argue with you; your username says it all!

Now quit trolling and go buy some carbon-footprint credits for all the hot air you're spewing.

[SoggyBottomBoy]

Originally Posted by Gore

When did the NFL say that the ledger whas the 'proof' that the Saints had a pay for injuries plan?

We dont know what the NFL has so Id be careful. Until 2 weeks ago people here said that the NFL didnt have something like the ledger, that money was only paid for turnovers but not for "whacks" or if a player got injured. Now there is the ledger, we know people got paid for whacks and Shanle admitted the "existence of rewards for legal hits that led to injuries."

Wait, what is it? Is the ledger not proof (first statement above)? Or is it proof (second statement above)?

[StRonaldo]

I think i'm going to make me a "Bounty Hunter" T shirt, with a 01 number on it.

[Gore]

Originally Posted by AceTW

Oh, that's the idea they've been trying to convey though. Even without 'saying it', they've made every effort possible to make people believe it and I don't think anyone with the ability of critical thought can deny that.

Well, if people don’t read what the NFL announced then they can come to wrong conclusions. That’s why I have been saying for almost three months now that people should read what the NFL actually said. But if they don’t then it's a bit weird to blame the NFL, don’t you think? It's not like the NFL is hiding the announcements. Some people also have the impression that opponents were targeted before every game even though the NFL has explicitly said that this was NOT the case. So is that the NFL’s fault too?

[maestreaux]

so the evidence is that the Saints ran a pay for performance program, which is against NFL rules. and the tapes show that Harper and Dunbar were given $200 for their hits. but then the team starts the "give it back" chant, which they do. And so did just about everyone else from what I have read. My question, if everyone "gave it back" did any money actually change hands?

[Gore]

Originally Posted by SoggyBottomBoy

Wait, what is it? Is the ledger not proof (first statement above)? Or is it proof (second statement above)?

In the first statement I simply asked where the NFL said the ledger proved anything. So far nobody could come up with a quote. Interesting.

In the second statement I pointed out that we have information now of which people here said that it just didnt exist. Thats interesting too.

[yuyi64]

Originally Posted by maestreaux

so the evidence is that the Saints ran a pay for performance program, which is against NFL rules. and the tapes show that Harper and Dunbar were given $200 for their hits. but then the team starts the "give it back" chant, which they do. And so did just about everyone else from what I have read. My question, if everyone "gave it back" did any money actually change hands?

I'm sure in Goodell's sick mind the money "changed" hands before it was "given" back, thus deserving any harsh punishment he wishes to dish out.

[Sun Wukong]

Originally Posted by Gore

In the first statement I simply asked where the NFL said the ledger proved anything. So far nobody could come up with a quote. Interesting.

If they release something like that it's pretty implicit they're using it as "evidence."

It's not really hard to figure out, is it?