I'm trying to decide if I would feel differently if it weren't the Saints

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by porculator

Well, how do you feel about the Redskins getting docked $40 million in cap space for violating a nonexistent rule?

Great point. I used to be a Skins fan until Daniel Schneider bought them. I feel bad for the disadvantage that creates for the players and coaches on the team. But for Schneider........................

[shrike3000]

My interest would obviously be less as well as my outrage. I would however still be very bothered by the shoddy investigation and all the holes in the evidence that Florio has pointed out. (Right now I know all the holes and knew all these issues before PFT ever posted their articles, if it werent the Saints I would probably learn these details from PFT and have a big problem with it.)

[shrike3000]

Originally Posted by Bill

Frankly Dave, I don't just THINK... I KNOW that I would feel the same way if this story came out about some other team in the league.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Saints players took all that the coach(es) told them as simply being motivational speech to get them to play harder and make them want to perform at the highest level.

Has there ever been a player that played with the INTENT to cause debilitating bodily harm to another player? I'm sure there has been. (In fact Jack Tatum said as much.)

However, (by far) the majority of NFL players have respect and even friendships with MANY other players in the league, and they line up against those players each and every week. Without exception these guys want to 'out execute' their buddy on that other team and earn some bragging rights. Of course they also enjoy the accolades of their own coaches & teammates.

When the final gun sounds and the losers lick their wounds on the same turf that the winners celebrate their success, both teams also acknowledge one another enjoying brief chats and reminiscing about past experiences on the gridiron. Adding to this is the sincere show of emotion by both teams any time a player from either team is down with a serious injury. Some kneel and pray; others give kind remarks of assurance to the injured player as they wait to be carted off the field.

I simply cannot believe that their is ANY team, ANYWHERE that (as a group) is inwardly or outwardly celebrating the injury to that player. The NFL fraternity of football players know the risks associated with the game. They know that their livelihood ultimately depends on their being able to 'beat' the player across from you more times than they are 'beaten' themselves. But these guys accept the risks for fame, money and glory.

Yet I do NOT believe that ANY team is desirous of those things to the degree that maiming opponents becomes that team's status quo.

Perhaps I'm just naive, but I will always feel that most every NFL player walks off of a football field proud of the fact that they gave all they had in them to play that game on that day. And pride would NOT be their emotion if their intent was with injury as their aim.

If the day ever comes that I definitely find out differently, then football will no longer be my sport. I'll be exclusively a golf man!

That was really well said. Bill

[VPCajun]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

I know the whole "bounty" thing has been beat to death and every possible opinion has been given here and elsewhere. In my mind, it's a horribly-overblown non-story. And with that being said, I can't help but think I'd feel the same way if it were some other team in the Saints shoes.
I finally re-watched the SF play-off game last week. Well, I watched until Malcolm Jenkins got rolled up and smoked by Vernon Davis. I couldn't bring myself to watch the final touchdown. One thing that stood out and I that I'd forgotten, was how the Saints got brutalized by the Niners D. From the first possession when PT got knocked silly to the late two-point conversion to Sproles where Henderson got dropped in his tracks by a LB because he didn't have his head on a swivel. All game long, the Niners defense hammered us. Brees took more shots in that game than I can remember him taking all season.
Now, let's say that it came out in March that the Niners had a "bounty" program in place on that day in January. I really believe I'd see at as as a big a pile of nonsense as I do with the Saints in the crosshairs. Just don't think it's very likely that I'd be whining like the Minnesota/Arizona/(insert team here) fans who felt like they were somehow cheated by the "bounty" program the Saints may have had. We got beat that day. I don't think SF was the better team, but they beat us THAT day. It happens.

At the risk of being too simplistic and painting with broad strokes...

It depends on whether one is like most Americans who decide things SUBJECTIVELY vs OBJECTIVELY.

Sadly, it seems to me that most Americans don't look at WHAT was actually done, but alas WHO did the deed!

Case in point, many (most?) Democrats go all out to defend Clinton and Obama but go all out to bash GW.

Whereas many (most?) Republicans go all out to defend GW but go all out to bash Clinton and Obama.

Neither side seems too concerned with WHAT was done, but WHO did it!


[Having said that, it appears to me that many Dems favor the "Ends justify the Means" philosophy whereas many Repubs favor the "Ends do NOT justify the Means".]

Personally, it should be first one sets up what one's ethics and morality are, and then from there judge the ACTIONS as to whether they are "just or not".

So...

having said all that, for me, it matters not whether it was the Saints or [gasp] the Falclowns or the Cowgirls in this predicament.

The NFL has failed the smell test.

Of course, I don't think Goddell nor the NFL really cares!

.

[VPCajun]

Originally Posted by NYCsaint

i think id be asking similar questions, but perhaps not as many... it just seems wrong. personally, im as interested in seeing hargrove and fujita getting their justice here as i am anyone else.

Interesting point in that if another team was being charged similarly would "we Saints fans" be seeking out OTHER TEAMS FORUM(s) to glean the info that we garner here at SR.com!

And if not, what info would we be seeing!

Sadly, it would be the pablum, nay, excrement being put out by most of the media!

So, it is rather amazing that so many other non-Saints fans (going by the ESPN "smear campaing" poll) have voted as they did "in favor" of the Saints!

[Optimusaint]

Originally Posted by V Chip

Agreed. After the Patriot taping scandal there were people who said that it happens in other places but nobody came out (to my knowledge) and said "yes we did this at X team all the time" the same way that many, many players and former players said about the bounties/PFP. The reaction to the spying scandal was that it gave a team a competitive advantage; the bounty/PFP didn't. I thought it was an overreaction then but I wasn't that invested in the decision.

Although when the evidence was destroyed, that completely set off my "fishy" meter.

If the Bounty/PFP happened to another team I would probably be skeptical of the charges, although I might have taken a more Florio-like response where at first I think they were guilty but as more and more inconsistencies appeared I would start to question it more.

^this^

initially i'd be like nearly every football fan was, and react with "wow, they deserve punishment" but as the stories continued to break, and the players started speaking out against the charges, id start looking at things a little more closely, regardless of the team involved.

if it were Dallas or Atlanta though, id still bash on them. id want leniency for Mike Smith though, i want him on the sidelines throwing headsets.

[CoolBrees1]

If it were the Falcons....I'd believe it 100%...

[otistp]

From the perspective of a non-Saints fan:

I feel bad for you guys, the fans. I also feel bad for some of the players. I have followed the case as much as possible. I have seen the "evidence". I do believe there was a bounty system in place. I don't believe what we've seen has proven that there was a bounty system. I don't care that there was a bounty system in place if there was one. I do think it's absurd that any players get a bigger punishment than any coaches. I could see it if one of the players genuinely hurt someone and only then if the hit was illegal.

I'm not a Saints hater, in the sense that I only I dislike your team as a divisional rival unlike, say, the Falcons or the Eagles. I have somewhat of an appreciation for the team as I love Drew Brees, I have Saints fan friends that fly in every year for the game and I think we have a mutual understanding of what it's like to suck for a long, long time before finally winning.

Honestly, the story would be just a memory to me if not for visiting this board and the articles about the appeals and lawsuits. I think a lot of you guys think this a black mark for your team in the eyes of the majority of fans around the league. I think most fans don't care, that most assume their teams do something similar. I think you'll hear it from some fans but, well, Eagles fans taunted Joe Jurevicius in the 2002 NFC Championship Game because his prematurely born son was extremely sick, causing him to miss practice and nearly miss the game. Some fans just express their hatred in whatever way is available. I don't think anyone will care in 2013 and definitely by 2014.

If this happened to my Bucs, I'd probably be raising hell. I'd also be ****** off that my team had a bounty system in place last year and no one ever collected anything. The 2011 Bucs could have a pay-for-tackle system in place and barely had that paid out, though.

Like I said, I feel for the fans. I understand the NFL's perspective, that they want to make the game safer and they're making examples out of the Saints so everyone else that may have something similar in place, that incentivizes big hits, puts a halt to it.

Lastly, I may be naive, but I genuinely don't believe players want to hurt other players. I think everyone is sensitive to their own career mortality.

[whoDATnationXLIV]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I would almost feel the same. Corruption is corruption whether it be against us or even the falcons. I would want goodell and pash exiled for this if it was any team.

I'm calling BS

[duck22]

The real question should be is why us?When almost or every team in the NFL is/are doing the same thing?Answer that RODGER PLEASE YOU CANT.You just making us look like we just going to take this.well you know where you can shove this right up your ear lol.we are not guilty because if we are you would be glad to show the real TRUE EVADINCE AGAINST US YOU HAVE ME SO MAD IM MISS SPELLING WORDS AND TYPING REALLY HARD YOU LIYING TO EVERY NFL FAN AND MOST IMPORANT ALL THESE YOUNG KIDS ASKING THERE PARENTS WHATS A BOUNTY?WHY OR THE SAINTS DOING THAT?WHY THE SAINTS HAVE TO CHEAT OR INJURE SOMEONE...ANSWER THAT RODGER IF I WERE YOU I COULDNT SLEEP AT NIGHT YOU ALWAYS LOOKED LIKE A SNAKE IN THE GRASS YOU TRASH.FIRE HIM NOW. YES I SAID IT FIRE RODGER GODELL NOW.WHO DAT FOR EVER RODGER.

[NYCsaint]

Originally Posted by duck22

The real question should be is why us?When almost or every team in the NFL is/are doing the same thing?Answer that RODGER PLEASE YOU CANT.You just making us look like we just going to take this.well you know where you can shove this right up your ear lol.we are not guilty because if we are you would be glad to show the real TRUE EVADINCE AGAINST US YOU HAVE ME SO MAD IM MISS SPELLING WORDS AND TYPING REALLY HARD YOU LIYING TO EVERY NFL FAN AND MOST IMPORANT ALL THESE YOUNG KIDS ASKING THERE PARENTS WHATS A BOUNTY?WHY OR THE SAINTS DOING THAT?WHY THE SAINTS HAVE TO CHEAT OR INJURE SOMEONE...ANSWER THAT RODGER IF I WERE YOU I COULDNT SLEEP AT NIGHT YOU ALWAYS LOOKED LIKE A SNAKE IN THE GRASS YOU TRASH.FIRE HIM NOW. YES I SAID IT FIRE RODGER GODELL NOW.WHO DAT FOR EVER RODGER.

[SAINTS 12]

Brees did not ask the NFLPA to contact the league, according to the report. Brees and the Saints have until July 16 to agree to a long-term contract or he must play under his one-year franchise tender in 2012, worth $16.371 million. If the league doesn't start an investigation before the July 16 deadline, the NFLPA will file a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board, CBSSports.com reported.

[cdogg]

Do you believe Auburn paid Cam Newton, despite 0 evidence? If so, you'd probably believe the bounty allegations.