For the past few months we've heard SOME of the * finger-quotes* "experts" yap about how the Saints offense will miss Payton because he's such a great play-caller.
I put "SOME" in bold because there really are a few guys in the media that knows that Pete Carmichael game-planned and called the plays for our offense while Payton was rehabbing from injury and even after Payton made it back to the sidelines.
So I got curious... how did our offense do in comparison between Payton and Carmichael? Now let me say now that I'm in NO WAY posting this to say that one play-caller is "better than" the other... I'm merely doing this just because I'm curious of how Carmichael did.
Under Payton: 34, 30, 40, 23, 30, ** 20 = 177 points / 6 games = 29.5 ppg
OK lets remove the 62 points they scored against Indy: 308 points / 9 games = 34.2 ppg
** Tampa Game
I will miss Payton just like everyone... I hope Goodell lets him come back this season even if only for the home stretch because we need his leadership and game-management on the sidelines, but I think our offense will be fine.
So whenever you hear an idiot from ESPN rant about missing Payton... just remember these numbers.
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Those stats are nice, but the major difference between then and now is that Payton was still involved daily with the team during his injury. He was able to give his input, contribute to game planning and Carmichael was able to ask him questions and bounce ideas off him. Also, Payton was able to contribute on gameday with in-game adjustments. That's the difference and I don't think it's insignificant.
Paytons influence is beyond just play calling. If I told you, before the suspension, take any of the top coaches in the NFL away from their team for one year, would anyone say that the team would improve from their prior years record? I doubt it.
I hope Im wrong, but I just dont see us with a better record and/or play than last year. The head coach is there for a reason, and our head coach is on of the best in the game. You just dont replace him and expect things to stay the same or for that matter improve.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goats
Paytons influence is beyond just play calling. If I told you, before the suspension, take any of the top coaches in the NFL away from their team for one year, would anyone say that the team would improve from their prior years record? I doubt it.
I hope Im wrong, but I just dont see us with a better record and/or play than last year. The head coach is there for a reason, and our head coach is on of the best in the game. You just dont replace him and expect things to stay the same or for that matter improve.
Right. For comparison, let's say that Bill Belicheck was suspended the whole year. Well, Josh McDaniels is there, but then lets say that he was also suspended for the 1st 6 games. They have Tom Brady right? But how would non-Patriots fans look at their team's ability to be successful under those circumstances?
Paytons influence is beyond just play calling. If I told you, before the suspension, take any of the top coaches in the NFL away from their team for one year, would anyone say that the team would improve from their prior years record? I doubt it.
I hope Im wrong, but I just dont see us with a better record and/or play than last year. The head coach is there for a reason, and our head coach is on of the best in the game. You just dont replace him and expect things to stay the same or for that matter improve.
Of course losing Payton hurts and doesn't INCREASE our chances of winning, but let's not forget that the Giants proved that you can win the Superbowl at 9-7. That means the Saints could potentially lose 4 more games than last year and still win the superbowl....
I think the OP's point is still valid, because even though we will most likely miss Sean Payton in other capacities, it will not be solely because of "play-calling". And even if we do see a drop-off in offensive production, we shouldn't assume it would be that significant, considering the offense actually performed better while Carmichael was calling the plays last year. (Granted there were a lot of other factors involved.)
I like this thread though, because it helps to show why we can still remain confident in the offense. The talent didn't go anywhere, and the man behind the play-calling of the record-breaking offense is STILL here and you could even argue he will have more freedom than he did before in running the offense how he wants. I have faith in Carmichael. He's so devoted to his trade that he even reportedly has rejected the possibility of him becoming interim head coach. I think he much prefers to focus on being the best play-caller in the game (which he arguably already is...)
The NFL has a couple of examples but college football proves it happens way more than you think. Two NFL teams in the last 25 years won a Super Bowl then had a new coach the next season.
In 1988 Bill Walsh retired after leading the San Francisco 49ers to their third Super Bowl title. Walsh, much like Sean Payton, was considered an offensive genius. He invented the West Coast Offense, drafted Joe Montana and ruined my childhood. The 49ers replaced him with defensive coordinator George Seifert. I remember Seifert for two things - Dead bodies showed more emotion in coffins than Seifert did during games and he to this day is the opposing coach my mom hates the most. George, if you ever see a red headed woman wearing a Sammy Knight Jersey walking towards you, run away. Fast.
In his first year, the 49ers went 14-2 and crushed Denver in the Super Bowl. He went 98-30 as San Francisco’s coach and would win another Super Bowl.
Not convinced huh?
Here is my favorite example to tell myself the 2012 will be just fine without Sean Payton.
In 1994 the Dallas Cowboys had won two straight Super Bowls under Jimmy Johnson but then after Johnson didn’t toast Jerry Jones at dinner, Jones fired him. Or Johnson quit. Depends on who is telling the story. Anyway Jones stunned the world when he replaced Johnson with former Oklahoma Sooners coach Barry Switzer.
Switzer hadn’t coached anywhere since 1988 and the sports world was in general agreement that Jerry had lost his mind. What the hell did Switzer know about coaching in the NFL? Didn’t he run the wishbone at Oklahoma? Yep.
In his first year all he did was go 12-4 and get the Cowboys to the NFC Championship. The Cowboys also had a new offensive coordinator in 1994 because Norv Turner left to coach the Redskins and run his first NFL team into the ground one bad coaching decision at a time.
In his second season Barry Switzer went 12-4 again and won the Super Bowl. The most memorable thing Barry did as head coach in Dallas was accidentally carry a handgun on a team flight.
When anybody tells you the 2012 Saints are going to crash and burn just say, “If freaking Barry Switzer can win a Super Bowl, Joe Vitt and whoever coaches the first six weeks can, too.” I’ll be telling myself this all year long.
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Im worried about what he brings to the players during the week, poking them and motivating them in different ways, and what he brings to the table on game day, some of the little things, little critiques, the "good job" with the daps, when to go for it on 4th down, when to go for 2, when to throw in a new wrinkle on special teams, etc. That is what will be interesting to watch.
The things Payton do best are taking advantage of player matchups and setting up play sequences to make aggressive play calling work. Charmichael is very good, but if he can effectively do these things, he becomes elite like Payton.
[Edit: Forgot a biggie.. halftime adjustments. A Sean Payton team ALWAYS comes back after halftime a different, better, more focused team.]
i have to imagine at this point that drew is just as good as SP in scouting the other team
and i'm not sure it will be hard for drew and carmichael replicate the in game calls/adjustments
one of the big intangibles is SP not being there to push drew's (and other players') buttons - pete's been with drew forever so that's probably not a problem -- so it might be him working with ingram and whatever young Wr is out there might be the only concern
BUT on the other side - other teams have no idea what drew and carmichael might cook up on their own - carmichael has sat at SP's right hand for years and i'm sure he's developed his own perspective about things
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This is going to be a very interesting year for Payton. All things considered the Saints are destined for great things. It's HC or QB episode III, 2008: 1:0 (Brady), 2011: 1:1 (Manning), and 2012: 1:2. Simplified but that's the way public opinions go.
Im worried about what he brings to the players during the week, poking them and motivating them in different ways, and what he brings to the table on game day, some of the little things, little critiques, the "good job" with the daps, when to go for it on 4th down, when to go for 2, when to throw in a new wrinkle on special teams, etc. That is what will be interesting to watch.
Agreed and...
What I think the Saints will miss is Payton's fiery emotional leadership during games. He always seems to find the right moments to chew guys out or lead a cheer to get the team over an emotional hump. Vitt is clearly emotional but the question is can he use that to motivate the guys during a critical moment in a game.
The Bill Walsh argument is certainly fair IMO. The 49ers were loaded on offense. Without Walsh, they were still loaded and still dominant.
Losing Payton isn't going to make Drew Brees, Jimmy Graham, Darren Sproles, Marques Colston, etc, forget how to play football. His system is still in place and it's not like they have to learn a whole new playbook.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bornnraisedwhodat
Im just not worried about the play calling.
Im worried about what he brings to the players during the week, poking them and motivating them in different ways, and what he brings to the table on game day, some of the little things, little critiques, the "good job" with the daps, when to go for it on 4th down, when to go for 2, when to throw in a new wrinkle on special teams, etc. That is what will be interesting to watch.
I think they'll have all the motivation they need this year. Not having Sean Payton won't be a factor IMO in that department. If anything, it will be more motivation.
I do agree on the game day decisions though. That's a slight concern of mine. My guess is Brees will have a lot more input this year on offensive decisions such as going for it on 4th down. Being aggressive is a key part of this offense though and I don't think we'll see the team all of a sudden be conservative.
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