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Old 02-22-2013, 07:41 PM   #29
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Payton is loyal to a fault. As a fan, I want what is best for the team. Even if it means being brutally honest. Will Smith and Jonathan Vilma are NOT VIABLE ANYMORE! Neither player is anywhere near being a proficient defender at this point in their careers. They are taking up a ton of cap space and not to mention 2 very valuable roster spots that could be had by two other cheaper and younger counterparts. Ask yourself this question: Are we better with them than we are without them? In my mind at least, our defense would probably perform about the same. So, why don't we save some money and some space on the roster?
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:46 PM   #30
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On what planet people think that a de who can't defend the run and can't rush the passer is a good starter? I wonder what games people actually watch. But yeah, let's keep a player who earns 14 mlns$$ because he's such a good leader, it helped us last year /sarcasm
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I hate it when people say "he's done nothing." That is just the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

His sack production is not up to par. His age is getting up there. That doesn't mean he can't play in the NFL anymore. Up until this season, he was HANDS DOWN OUR BEST DEFENSIVE END ON THE ROSTER. Cam Jordan would be that guy now, but if you think that Will Smith is done, you're lost.

He's restructuring. He can help this team. Sounds like the best possible outcome.
Yes and what does that tell us? It just means our DEs sucked big time. Seriously, he's never been a great pass rusher, and the past year he was getting pushed like a high schooler on any kind of run, how is it that people think he's so good? "Zone d"? For a dl?

Seriously. If next year he'll have a 10 sack 80+ tackles season ok, but otherwise he would be worth keeping at 1 mln or whatever the vet minimum is. Do you guys realize he's earning 14 mlns? Good heavens.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:47 PM   #31
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Payton is loyal to a fault. As a fan, I want what is best for the team. Even if it means being brutally honest. Will Smith and Jonathan Vilma are NOT VIABLE ANYMORE! Neither player is anywhere near being a proficient defender at this point in their careers. The are taking up a ton of cap space and not to mention 2 very valuable roster spots that could be had by two other cheaper and younger counterparts. Ask yourself this question: Are we better with them than we are without them? In my mind at least, our defense would probably perform about the same. So, why don't we save some money and some space on the roster?
I don't understand this either? Payton is loyal to a fault? He traded Reggie Bush. He just cut Dave Thomas. He has fired multiple coordinators... Gary Gibbs was a personal friend of his from Dallas. Fired.

I don't think this has anything to do with loyalty. Your second sentence began with "As a fan" and it should continue "we react emotionally to the results we see during a season. We don't break down film or grade players on their performances. We may not have a full grasp of the nuances of why or where a player actually struggles."

In 99% of these situations, there is a happy medium between the apologists and the "haters," so to speak. I think Payton is hitting that medium pretty squarely by asking these guys to restructure their contracts. This "cut the cord" and "get rid of them" talk. Why? Are they taking up a roster spot and keeping someone better from making the team? Then they'll get cut in camp!!

The salary cap argument is the only viable one. And now it's being alleviated because all of these guys are agreeing to restructure. So what it comes down it is an emotional reaction. That is the hands down, only reason to get rid of a good player.

We can argue all day during the offseason about whether or not a guy can play. All I can tell you is that 16 games worth of grading and coaches' film probably tells a different story than these endless threads do.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:52 PM   #32
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God I'm just remembering... I think after the Atlanta game in 2010... when people were up in arms and tossing around blame about why we lost and I said "well Jonathon Vilma got owned that last drive, maybe we should put some of the blame on him." And it was like I had just publicly executed a puppy. Criticizing Vilma was absolute blasphemy.

But now, he suffers one injury and everyone thinks he's done??? "He's old" is what I keep hearing. He's 31!!!!!! Ray Lewis just retired at age 37 or 38. London Fletcher is still playing into his late 30s. Urlacher. The list goes on. This is not a RB we're talking about. LBs have long careers, just like every defensive player and really every player besides RBs.

In short, 31 is not old. Vilma is not done. Smith is not done. Why we go from "they're god" to "they're crap" in a span of 12 months is beyond me. It's crazy is what it is. And it makes for a very irritating conversation.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:01 PM   #33
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He's gonna be this years Justin Houston. I honestly like Montgomery more than I like Mingo. I think Montgomery has a better pro-style game. Houston lasted till the 3rd round for similar reasons, lack of commitment, focus, weed, etc. But the jump seemingly straightened him out. Maybe the same could happen to Montgomery. That being said, I prob wouldnt take him in the 1st. 2nd-3rd, I'd love to see us make that move.
My problem with Montgomery is that he's usually the last guy off the ball. He's not explosive off the snap. He doesn't really have a position in our scheme.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:02 PM   #34
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:02 PM   #35
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And exactly which games were you watching where he did well? He was getting pushed around in normal run defense, against zone read offenses he was embarrassing, and his lack of ability to rush the passer made a bad secondary look even worse.

He's obviously a leader of a defense but that's as far as it goes.
He won't need to rush the passer with speed as a 3-4 DE and speed is what he has lost the last few years. He's an experienced veteran that played well under Gregg Williams in what was essentially a 3-4 scheme similar to what Rob Ryan runs.

No, he is no longer a double digit sack guy, but he is still a guy that can set the edge and allow a LB to run free. And he is a guy that can get you some pressure with some veteran tricks, strength and effort. Which is really what you want in a 3-4 1 gap defense. So, if he will play at a number that will allow Loomis to sign the free agents we want and our draft picks then I see no reason to not have his veteran presence in the locker room. To think otherwise is reactionary and shows a lack of understanding of what makes a team.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:03 PM   #36
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Really? He isn't star material anymore but he is a legit starter.

Show me 15 plays all season in which he looked like a legit starter. You only have about 850 snaps to choose from to find 15 and I bet you still can't do it.

Want to see some plays that proves he isn't a legit starter? Just watch any game at any point in the season in any given situation.

He is a great guy, great leader to have in the locker room, he is a great representative off the field for the Saints and he has been through so much with this team but so has Micky Loomis and nobody is asking him to suit up.

Will Smith isn't going to restructure for the league min, it just wont happen. He'd rather be cut and placed on the open market. Even if we sign the guy to a couple million a year it is money we could have put towards a good young player in free agency. To sign him after the season he had, at his age and only to move him out of position will go a very long way to prevent us from getting better.

I spent the last 5 months of the season disgusted at the play of several players on our defense and defense as a whole with Will Smith topping the list. If we start that sorry excuse for an NFL player over a good young player again this season I'll lose my ******* mind.

I hope Jason Cole is wrong and he strokes out like I just did reading this article.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:05 PM   #37
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It'll be a bit more than the veteran minimum but not much.

I mean look, we have a bunch of young players we like anyways, he is a smart veteran who knows roughly what Ryan will expect from the DE spot. His last decent season was with similar responsibilities under Williams, if we can retain him for a couple of million, its a good move. It'll cost 1 million to just get a veteran replacement. So why not?
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:05 PM   #38
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God I'm just remembering... I think after the Atlanta game in 2010... when people were up in arms and tossing around blame about why we lost and I said "well Jonathon Vilma got owned that last drive, maybe we should put some of the blame on him." And it was like I had just publicly executed a puppy. Criticizing Vilma was absolute blasphemy.

But now, he suffers one injury and everyone thinks he's done??? "He's old" is what I keep hearing. He's 31!!!!!! Ray Lewis just retired at age 37 or 38. London Fletcher is still playing into his late 30s. Urlacher. The list goes on. This is not a RB we're talking about. LBs have long careers, just like every defensive player and really every player besides RBs.

In short, 31 is not old. Vilma is not done. Smith is not done. Why we go from "they're god" to "they're crap" in a span of 12 months is beyond me. It's crazy is what it is. And it makes for a very irritating conversation.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:06 PM   #39
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Payton is loyal to a fault. As a fan, I want what is best for the team. Even if it means being brutally honest. Will Smith and Jonathan Vilma are NOT VIABLE ANYMORE! Neither player is anywhere near being a proficient defender at this point in their careers. They are taking up a ton of cap space and not to mention 2 very valuable roster spots that could be had by two other cheaper and younger counterparts. Ask yourself this question: Are we better with them than we are without them? In my mind at least, our defense would probably perform about the same. So, why don't we save some money and some space on the roster?
What is it in your background that makes you a better evaluator of NFL talent than Payton, Loomis, Ryan, and the rest of the coaches that have watched Will Smith and Jon Vilma on the field and in the locker room for many years?
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:07 PM   #40
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Reality is that because of the pro-rated bonus he'll still cost a lot to cut, so we can still give him a pay cut and it be cheaper for us to keep him than cut him. Loomis screwed up when he signed him to that long term deal so now we are just trying to make the best out of a bad situation.
This is the last year of his contract (next year is a club option). His cap hit if we cut him right now would only be $2 million. Not that we want to waste $2 million dollars, but I guess I don't see how your post is in line with the situation.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:07 PM   #41
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Show me 15 plays all season in which he looked like a legit starter. You only have about 850 snaps to choose from to find 15 and I bet you still can't do it.
58 tackles last year as a DE. That's a career high for Smith. Yeah, I think he'll be able to find 15 plays, easy.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:08 PM   #42
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On what planet people think that a de who can't defend the run and can't rush the passer is a good starter? I wonder what games people actually watch. But yeah, let's keep a player who earns 14 mlns$$ because he's such a good leader, it helped us last year /sarcasm
Yes and what does that tell us? It just means our DEs sucked big time. Seriously, he's never been a great pass rusher, and the past year he was getting pushed like a high schooler on any kind of run, how is it that people think he's so good? "Zone d"? For a dl?

Seriously. If next year he'll have a 10 sack 80+ tackles season ok, but otherwise he would be worth keeping at 1 mln or whatever the vet minimum is. Do you guys realize he's earning 14 mlns? Good heavens.
You do realize that he is restructuring right? You do realize that is the reason for this thread, right?
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