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Old 02-22-2013, 09:17 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by zeetes View Post
as usual, well said. i'm developing a man crush on you dan.
You get made fun of enough in the VG boards...lol.

That being said, if it's a team friendly deal, then keep him. No harm in that case. .
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:20 PM   #47
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TCU Dan is bringing the wood
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:24 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by TCUDan View Post
God I'm just remembering... I think after the Atlanta game in 2010... when people were up in arms and tossing around blame about why we lost and I said "well Jonathon Vilma got owned that last drive, maybe we should put some of the blame on him." And it was like I had just publicly executed a puppy. Criticizing Vilma was absolute blasphemy.

But now, he suffers one injury and everyone thinks he's done??? "He's old" is what I keep hearing. He's 31!!!!!! Ray Lewis just retired at age 37 or 38. London Fletcher is still playing into his late 30s. Urlacher. The list goes on. This is not a RB we're talking about. LBs have long careers, just like every defensive player and really every player besides RBs.

In short, 31 is not old. Vilma is not done. Smith is not done. Why we go from "they're god" to "they're crap" in a span of 12 months is beyond me. It's crazy is what it is. And it makes for a very irritating conversation.




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Old 02-22-2013, 09:35 PM   #49
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58 tackles last year as a DE. That's a career high for Smith. Yeah, I think he'll be able to find 15 plays, easy.
Do it and post the video or link of the video of each play and I'll shoot you $20 via paypal.


First, 58 tackles is not a career high. He had 60 in 2005, 66 in 2007 and 61 in 2008. This was the 4th highest total of his career. Not surprisingly, the other 3 seasons he had high tackle totals we also missed the playoffs because our defense stunk and he was on the field the whole game. The 58 tackles is very misleading since he had easily his highest assisted tackles of his career from falling on piles. He had 33 solo tackles which was the 3rd worst of his career behind only his rookie season and a shortened season in 2010 from being suspended.

He also played 1072 snaps this season. That means he had a solo tackle every 32.5 snaps. I'm willing to bet that is among the worst in the league for a starting defensive end.

As a pass rusher he was horrible. He had 6.5 sacks but didn't earn but maybe 1-2 of those. The rest was from tackling the QB running from Cam or Junior. He played 986 defensive snaps. That means he was getting a sack every few hundred snaps or about every 150 QB drop backs. That is beyond horrid.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:43 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCUDan View Post
God I'm just remembering... I think after the Atlanta game in 2010... when people were up in arms and tossing around blame about why we lost and I said "well Jonathon Vilma got owned that last drive, maybe we should put some of the blame on him." And it was like I had just publicly executed a puppy. Criticizing Vilma was absolute blasphemy.

But now, he suffers one injury and everyone thinks he's done??? "He's old" is what I keep hearing. He's 31!!!!!! Ray Lewis just retired at age 37 or 38. London Fletcher is still playing into his late 30s. Urlacher. The list goes on. This is not a RB we're talking about. LBs have long careers, just like every defensive player and really every player besides RBs.

In short, 31 is not old. Vilma is not done. Smith is not done. Why we go from "they're god" to "they're crap" in a span of 12 months is beyond me. It's crazy is what it is. And it makes for a very irritating conversation.
So you are saying Vilma looked just as athletic and was every bit of the player last season that he was in 2009? If not then why?

Has Vilma ever had a good year in a 34 or as an OLB?

Vilma struggled big time last season. He struggled with the Jets when they switched to a 34. He publicly stated that he isn't a good fit for a 34 when in New York. Now he is 5 years older, overcoming several injuries and all the sudden he is going to be a good player in the same situation in which he struggled? I love Vilma, bought a Vilma jersey just two weeks ago. He'll go down as one of my all time favorite Saints. We don't win a Super Bowl without him but it doesn't make him younger, faster, stronger, better, more physical or suddenly better suited for a 34 defense.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:47 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by bclemms View Post
Do it and post the video or link of the video of each play and I'll shoot you $20 via paypal.
Yeah, coming right up.
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First, 58 tackles is not a career high. He had 60 in 2005, 66 in 2007 and 61 in 2008. This was the 4th highest total of his career.
Just going off these stats from the mobile version of NFL.com
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:49 PM   #52
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You really don't think 2 million is worth it for Will Smith?


Consider this, he's a 6 million cap figure no matter what. By restructuring combined with a loss in money, we can actually lower his cap number for this year below what he'd cost if we just outright cut him. And he IS a serviceable rotation guy. He wasn't that bad under GW, and playing inside the tackle in some lineups as he will under Ryan (as he did under GW) will actually help him remain relevant.

We've got a bunch of young guys at DE as is, and if we add anymore it'll be rookies. Cutting Smith and signing a veteran will cost more than restructuring Smith and probably not yield a significantly ore useful player.

It's really does make sense
I don't want to cut Smith and add a veteran, I'd rather roll with young players. I'd rather a crappy rookie than a washed up vet. Find out what is out there and roll the dice on some young guys and possibly find a diamond in the rough.

I'll give you that, he is serviceable as a 43 end but move a serviceable vet out of position and he isn't even that serviceable anymore.

I realize he has played inside on multiple formations in the past. He has played DT in a 4 man front, he has played as a 34 end on some of GW's packages and he has played multiple gaps in a 3 man fronts from nickle and dime packages. Just because he has played there some in the past doesn't mean he is good. I don't think he has ever recorded a single hurry, much less a sack playing from the inside so he is a waste of space as a pass rusher from 34 end. Against the run he is extremely undersized as a 34 end and he got manhandled by OT's as a 43 end just this last season.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:53 PM   #53
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Yeah, coming right up.

Just going off these stats from the mobile version of NFL.com
No fault of yours but those stats are different than NFL.com non mobile site, ESPN and Yahoo.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:06 PM   #54
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I like TCU Dan's posts.
Same thing I was thinking. Always enjoy reading what he has to say

Having said that, I was hoping Smith would get released. But really a restructured deal was the best scenario for both sides
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:24 PM   #55
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Just work out a fair deal give the guy a chance to learn the new system and help coach the young guys on the team. Who Dat
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:31 PM   #56
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You do realize that he is restructuring right? You do realize that is the reason for this thread, right?
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So you are saying Vilma looked just as athletic and was every bit of the player last season that he was in 2009? If not then why?

Has Vilma ever had a good year in a 34 or as an OLB?

Vilma struggled big time last season. He struggled with the Jets when they switched to a 34. He publicly stated that he isn't a good fit for a 34 when in New York. Now he is 5 years older, overcoming several injuries and all the sudden he is going to be a good player in the same situation in which he struggled? I love Vilma, bought a Vilma jersey just two weeks ago. He'll go down as one of my all time favorite Saints. We don't win a Super Bowl without him but it doesn't make him younger, faster, stronger, better, more physical or suddenly better suited for a 34 defense.
But you're not taking in everything into consideration when the Jets switched to the 3-4 he had Dewayne Robertson as his NT and he couldn't keep blockers off Vilma which is vital in the 3-4. In 2009 Gw ran the 3-4 between 35% and 40% of the snaps and Vilma had a career year.

Will Smith getting restructured doesn't mean he will make the team if five other guys are better than he will be cut, if not then he earned it and isn't that a major part of camp?
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:38 PM   #57
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I think we are jumping on a lot of conclusions here. Let's wait and see the numbers, and then criticize the move.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:42 PM   #58
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I don't understand this either? Payton is loyal to a fault? He traded Reggie Bush. He just cut Dave Thomas. He has fired multiple coordinators... Gary Gibbs was a personal friend of his from Dallas. Fired.

I don't think this has anything to do with loyalty. Your second sentence began with "As a fan" and it should continue "we react emotionally to the results we see during a season. We don't break down film or grade players on their performances. We may not have a full grasp of the nuances of why or where a player actually struggles."

In 99% of these situations, there is a happy medium between the apologists and the "haters," so to speak. I think Payton is hitting that medium pretty squarely by asking these guys to restructure their contracts. This "cut the cord" and "get rid of them" talk. Why? Are they taking up a roster spot and keeping someone better from making the team? Then they'll get cut in camp!!

The salary cap argument is the only viable one. And now it's being alleviated because all of these guys are agreeing to restructure. So what it comes down it is an emotional reaction. That is the hands down, only reason to get rid of a good player.

We can argue all day during the offseason about whether or not a guy can play. All I can tell you is that 16 games worth of grading and coaches' film probably tells a different story than these endless threads do.

Jonathan Vilma himself said that he hates playing in a 3-4. It is how he originally injured his knee, which in turn has been a continuous problem since the 2010 season. 31 is old when you been playing in the NFL since you were 22. That is a decade of wear and tear. Ive been in the Marine Corps. for a decade and my body doesn't feel anywhere near the same at age 29 as it did at 18. I can only imagine the mileage an NFL season puts on your body. Vilma's spirit maybe willing, but his body isn't able.

Will Smith has been horrible since 2009, period. End of story! Ive accepted it and moved on. He isn't all of a sudden going to be a better DE in a 3-4 than he was in a 4-3.

My comments aren't emotional ones when I can point to tangible evidence that says Vilma and Smith have stunk it up since 2009. There are other scouting services that say this. Thats how I know my reactions and statements aren't emotional. The data is empirical. Im not just relying on my gut or my eye. Its backed up by cold hard facts my friend.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:43 PM   #59
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I think we are a little too loyal.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:44 PM   #60
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I would rather release him.
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