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Old 02-22-2013, 10:38 PM   #57
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I think we are jumping on a lot of conclusions here. Let's wait and see the numbers, and then criticize the move.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:42 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by TCUDan View Post
I don't understand this either? Payton is loyal to a fault? He traded Reggie Bush. He just cut Dave Thomas. He has fired multiple coordinators... Gary Gibbs was a personal friend of his from Dallas. Fired.

I don't think this has anything to do with loyalty. Your second sentence began with "As a fan" and it should continue "we react emotionally to the results we see during a season. We don't break down film or grade players on their performances. We may not have a full grasp of the nuances of why or where a player actually struggles."

In 99% of these situations, there is a happy medium between the apologists and the "haters," so to speak. I think Payton is hitting that medium pretty squarely by asking these guys to restructure their contracts. This "cut the cord" and "get rid of them" talk. Why? Are they taking up a roster spot and keeping someone better from making the team? Then they'll get cut in camp!!

The salary cap argument is the only viable one. And now it's being alleviated because all of these guys are agreeing to restructure. So what it comes down it is an emotional reaction. That is the hands down, only reason to get rid of a good player.

We can argue all day during the offseason about whether or not a guy can play. All I can tell you is that 16 games worth of grading and coaches' film probably tells a different story than these endless threads do.

Jonathan Vilma himself said that he hates playing in a 3-4. It is how he originally injured his knee, which in turn has been a continuous problem since the 2010 season. 31 is old when you been playing in the NFL since you were 22. That is a decade of wear and tear. Ive been in the Marine Corps. for a decade and my body doesn't feel anywhere near the same at age 29 as it did at 18. I can only imagine the mileage an NFL season puts on your body. Vilma's spirit maybe willing, but his body isn't able.

Will Smith has been horrible since 2009, period. End of story! Ive accepted it and moved on. He isn't all of a sudden going to be a better DE in a 3-4 than he was in a 4-3.

My comments aren't emotional ones when I can point to tangible evidence that says Vilma and Smith have stunk it up since 2009. There are other scouting services that say this. Thats how I know my reactions and statements aren't emotional. The data is empirical. Im not just relying on my gut or my eye. Its backed up by cold hard facts my friend.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:43 PM   #59
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I think we are a little too loyal.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:44 PM   #60
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I would rather release him.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:46 PM   #61
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WOW check this tweet out..

Dan Hope@Dan_Hope
@TonyPauline reported today #LSU coaches aren't giving DE Sam Montgomery a "ringing endorsement" to NFL teams. Not a good sign for him.
Why would LSU coaches do this? What could they possibly hope to gain?
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:49 PM   #62
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disappointing unless it is for the vet minimum. but does not really surprise me considering they were so loyal as to keep shanle for 6 years.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:50 PM   #63
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Why would LSU coaches do this? What could they possibly hope to gain?
It really doesn't make all that much sense for them to do that. Either he did something to miss someone off, or the story is erroneous. Id lean toward the latter.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:51 PM   #64
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Credibility for when they do give good endorsements?

It happens, college coaches do slam players at times. The only reason Greg Hardy slipped to the 6th round was because Houston Nutt slammed his personality. Then he ends up with 11 sacks but it's also just as likely that its something someone on some NFL team is putting out to drive Montgomery's value down so they can get him too.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:57 PM   #65
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You get made fun of enough in the VG boards...lol.

That being said, if it's a team friendly deal, then keep him. No harm in that case. .
I can't help it if i'm too awesome for those lowlifes.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:57 PM   #66
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I don't understand this either? Payton is loyal to a fault? He traded Reggie Bush. He just cut Dave Thomas. He has fired multiple coordinators... Gary Gibbs was a personal friend of his from Dallas. Fired.
Cmon Dan... I love your posts but yes they are loyal to a fault. He traded Reggie bush because Bush wanted to leave for a better role (and he would have left without compensation after his contract was up). He cut Dave Thomas to trim cap... but I'd be willing to bet Thomas will be back at a lower cap #. Gary Gibbs should have been fired waay before he did get fired because our defense sucked then too (did he get fired or did his contract run out?). I think you'd agree that we needed a new DC. Charles Grant was on his way to Tampa before Payton persuaded Loomis to resign him... Grant had NO business getting the contract he signed, but that's another example of Payton and his loyalty.

And your statement about Will Smith being hands down our best DE is absolutely correct, but compared to what? Smith has been hands down our best DE since Darren Howard left. That doesn't mean the guy hasn't underperformed for years now. Smith has been average at best since '09, and I understand we can't simply cut him because of his cap #, but we need more talent at DE regardless of scheme. I know these are great "locker room guys" but at what price do they stay if their performance on the field doesn't command the contract?
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:18 PM   #67
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:29 PM   #68
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Jonathan Vilma himself said that he hates playing in a 3-4. It is how he originally injured his knee, which in turn has been a continuous problem since the 2010 season. 31 is old when you been playing in the NFL since you were 22. That is a decade of wear and tear. Ive been in the Marine Corps. for a decade and my body doesn't feel anywhere near the same at age 29 as it did at 18. I can only imagine the mileage an NFL season puts on your body. Vilma's spirit maybe willing, but his body isn't able.

Will Smith has been horrible since 2009, period. End of story! Ive accepted it and moved on. He isn't all of a sudden going to be a better DE in a 3-4 than he was in a 4-3.

My comments aren't emotional ones when I can point to tangible evidence that says Vilma and Smith have stunk it up since 2009. There are other scouting services that say this. Thats how I know my reactions and statements aren't emotional. The data is empirical. Im not just relying on my gut or my eye. Its backed up by cold hard facts my friend.
And yet, you kept going.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:33 PM   #69
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And yet, you kept going.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:46 PM   #70
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I think everyone is missing out on the role of the 3-4 end though. Will will be able to bulk up some in the offseason and be more of a block eater. The idea is to have a LDE who can match up on the slimmer left tackles and bull rush them. The RDE is actually slimmer and tries to use more of a speed move around the typically heavier/run oriented right tackles.

The Saints have always been burned by that combo. Bushrod can't block bull rushers and Strief can't block outside speed guys. The 3-4 line up is tailored to beating a typical NFL style line. I've been saying for the past 2 years that we have a 3-4 line without the 3-4 line backers on the field.
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