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Old 02-23-2013, 05:11 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by bclemms View Post
Loyalty is a very good attribute to have.

Problem is if you become too loyal to a single player in a team sport it can become a fault. Simply by being loyal to a player that has played well for you in the past and always been a great guy to the point of keeping him on a roster over a better player or starting him over a better player it isn't fair to the team as a whole. In other words, by being too loyal to one player then by default it is being unloyal to the other players, coaches and fans by not giving your team the best chance to win.

I'm not saying that Payton is overly loyal to players. I don't think Smith ever sees the final roster and if he does he'll likely rarely play. It isn't Payton's fault for starting Smith over Junior last season, he couldn't do anything about it. Now if it happens again this season this discussion takes a drastic change IMO.

I can say this about Payton with certainty. I can't name a single veteran Saint that we've parted ways with even 1 year too soon.
Joe Horn, Jamal Brown, Deuce, Stinch, Stallworth, Grant, Fred Thomas, Michael Lewis, Jay Bellamy, Mike Mckenzie and others. None have left here and really done much of anything but quite a few on this list performed poorly the last season here.
Stallworth was traded the year Payton got here.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:51 PM   #100
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i dont doubt his skillset but i question how it's going to fit into this new alignment.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:47 PM   #101
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The Saints fielded an awful defense last season. However, for a lame-duck season without a head coach there has been an extraordinary level of vindictive rage directed at players in a personal way. Much of the rage these players receive is the result of immature fans with anger issues who try to live vicariously through the team to make up for the problems they have in their personal lives. This is sadly a common phenomenon.

The majority of sports fans are everyday people with a healthy and passionate interest, but football teams often attract individuals with low self esteem who want to latch on to a "winner" in order to feel better about themselves.

When the "winner" these people have chosen isn't successful, they become irrationally angry and lash out in a personal way.

In short, if you feel that the Saints need to cut a player to "punish" them for not reaching your expectations this says little about the Saints but an awful lot about your emotional and mental health and maturity
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:40 AM   #102
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Will Smith needs to be cut or restructured to where it won't hurt us this year or next. JV needs to restructure. I think he has a year or two left.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:44 AM   #103
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Will Smith needs to be cut or restructured to where it won't hurt us this year or next. JV needs to restructure. I think he has a year or two left.
Vilma is on his last year. And, um, yeah. The thread is about Smith restructuring.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:37 AM   #104
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He's not hurting the team. He's not. "He hurt us on the field last year." Really? Then why was he kept on the field? "Because the coaches are stupid." OK, fine, I can't argue with you anymore. .
I agreed with everything you said up to this point.
Will Smith really did hurt us on the field last year. IIRC teams ran at him 87% of the time.
I don't think Spags is stupid...just stubborn.
The whole year I wanted Smith's snap count to go down and to see more of Junior and Martez. I know we will see it this year with the 3-4 installment...but come on Spags.
Wasted opportunity that I can't forgive.

Hopefully he restructures for $2.5 million and does a better job with the limited snaps.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:58 AM   #105
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I've thought about this, and I wonder if this is either to make a trade more palatable for other teams, or if they are going to take his remaining money, extend the contract, and push the money to the end of the contract. It would not be guaranteed money, but perhaps Smith and his agent realize that A) free agency won't be nearly as lucrative as in years past, B) his performance has declined in recent years and coupled with his age (31) he knows it would be better to stick with a contender rather than go to a team with a lot of cap space but a bad team the way Fujita did in 2010 when he left for Cleveland, or C) Smith realizes that if he wants to stay with the Saints until retirement, he will have to take a deal that is more beneficial to the Saints than it is to him.

If he signs a contract that pushes his base salary to later years, it might look something like this:

He currently has a contract that pays him a 9 million base salary for 2013. His remaining bonus money totals just over 5.5 million. Next season, 2014, is a club option year at 10.4 million. The 9 million current base salary becomes part of the extended contract. His contract could be extended, with the following numbers:

The club option for next year disappears as part of the extension.

2013: 1 million in base salary, with one million added to the current bonus to make the bonus money equal 6.5 over the course of the new contract (three years, pro-rated out to 2.17 million per year). Cap for 2013: 3.17 million, a savings of 11.3 million this year on the cap.

2014: 1.2 million base salary plus pro-rated bonus for a cap figure of 4.37 million.

2015: 6.8 million plus the 3.17 bonus for cap of 9.97 million. Of course, he would be relesed in the offseason to free up 6.8 million in cap. (The 3.17 million would count as dead money.)

Those are numbers the Saints could deal with. He would know he would never get the 6.8 million in the final year of his contract, but that's the business side of the NFL. This is simplified, but it let's us see that something like this could be done. All of the money is part of the new contract, which would pretty well guarantee he would be in New Orleans for this season and next because the cap ramifications of cutting him before next season would be prohibitive (The Saints would save the 1.2 million in base salary but be on the hook for the two years of pro-rated bonus for a total of 6.34 million. Of course, if a chunk of that bonus money were roster bonuses, that could trim that figure as well. That's why the cap is so complicated. It all depends on where the money is as to how it affects the cap and future dead money.

I, for one, would rather see the Saints not re-sign him, but if the extension saves the Saints more than releasing him, I can see why they would want him around. He would make at least a good backup OLB or DE.

Also, understand that I am no cap expert and some of what I have here may be in error because I may have something happening that cannot be done legally as part of a contract in the NFL, but the idea is the same, regardless. Extend and backload. That would save the Saints cap space and make releasing him more attractive in a later year.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:51 AM   #106
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I've thought about this, and I wonder if this is either to make a trade more palatable for other teams, .
Why would he have any incentive to restructure so we could trade him? Absolutely no chance of that happening.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:53 AM   #107
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But yes, quite obviously the saints intend to cut his non-guaranteed money down considerably, extend his deal, and prorate the already guaranteed pay over the length of the contract, creating a lower cap number and filling the roster spot than if they had cut him.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:56 PM   #108
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But yes, quite obviously the saints intend to cut his non-guaranteed money down considerably, extend his deal, and prorate the already guaranteed pay over the length of the contract, creating a lower cap number and filling the roster spot than if they had cut him.
Good point. I think he has around $6.8M of guaranteed money left on his deal. We could spread that out over the course of about three years and put some bonuses and incentives in there for Smith. More than he would make in the open market but good enough for us cap-wise.

I'm no cap wizard but this is just a guess.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:21 PM   #109
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Why would he have any incentive to restructure so we could trade him? Absolutely no chance of that happening.
You don't understand the business end of this. Who says he would know a trade was in the works?
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:25 PM   #110
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You don't understand the business end of this. Who says he would know a trade was in the works?
It really doesn't matter, nobody would trade for Will Smith.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:10 AM   #111
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Is this done yet? How long can they be working on the restructured contract?
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:41 AM   #112
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The Saints fielded an awful defense last season. However, for a lame-duck season without a head coach there has been an extraordinary level of vindictive rage directed at players in a personal way. Much of the rage these players receive is the result of immature fans with anger issues who try to live vicariously through the team to make up for the problems they have in their personal lives. This is sadly a common phenomenon.

The majority of sports fans are everyday people with a healthy and passionate interest, but football teams often attract individuals with low self esteem who want to latch on to a "winner" in order to feel better about themselves.

When the "winner" these people have chosen isn't successful, they become irrationally angry and lash out in a personal way.

In short, if you feel that the Saints need to cut a player to "punish" them for not reaching your expectations this says little about the Saints but an awful lot about your emotional and mental health and maturity
Thank you Dr. Brothers but maybe the fans see a guy who plays lousy every week and want to get rid of him because they truly feel that would be best for the team. It has been going on since the beginning of fandom and one of the nice things about being a fan is that you can play GM and call for someones head yet ave no repercussions if you are wrong but bask in your own brilliance if you are right.

However, there is the deep psycolgical issues afflicting those that want to hold on to obviously bad players much like the Hoarder grips on to that moldy bread. Deep- seated fears grip this fan (Hoarder) as the desire for familiarity and control will lead this person to, if given the chance, draft the top 7 LSU players and tell us why we "need" them. A sad affliction that will show itself in support of players like Smith, Jenkins, and Harper. No cure yet discovered.
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