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Old 09-09-2012, 11:17 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diat150 View Post
nobody is judging him off of 6 carries. he has been mediocre his whole time here. even this preseason he was terrible yet everyone wanted to pick on ivory.
He was terrible in preseason? Say what? Apart from the last game against backups Ivory was the one that looked terrible in preseason.

As has been pointed out countless times Ingram played last year with a mess of a o-line. Kreutz was useless and Brown's an inferior run blocker compared to Strief.

Lay off your vendetta. The coaches are rolling with Ingram not because he's a high draft pick, it's because he's superior to Ivory. The sooner you're willing to accept reality the happier you'll be.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:22 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackDiesel View Post
He was terrible in preseason? Say what? Apart from the last game against backups Ivory was the one that looked terrible in preseason.

As has been pointed out countless times Ingram played last year with a mess of a o-line. Kreutz was useless and Brown's an inferior run blocker compared to Strief.

Lay off your vendetta. The coaches are rolling with Ingram not because he's a high draft pick, it's because he's superior to Ivory. The sooner you're willing to accept reality the happier you'll be.
in what universe is 3.1 ypc not terrible? say what is right. no need t make excuses for ingram. he is not performing anywhere near where he should be. lets mot make this an argument about ivory vs ingram, I could care less who gets the carries as long as they produce. ingram is not producing and wasnt terribly productive last year.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:38 PM   #78
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Ingram is a good back and didn't get enough carries but when he is in there he is taking opportunity away from PT. To me it seems like PT runs with more determination and is a better fit. Ingram is solid but PT is a difference maker.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:50 PM   #79
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I will probably get a lot of hate for this...but IMO Ingram will never work out for you guys...

For another team? Probably..

For Saints? No way...

He is not a back that can be rotated between 3 backs. He is the kind that needs to get 25+ touches per game to have a good performance. In the Saints offense that will never happen
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:57 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Calibucsfan View Post
I will probably get a lot of hate for this...but IMO Ingram will never work out for you guys...

For another team? Probably..

For Saints? No way...

He is not a back that can be rotated between 3 backs. He is the kind that needs to get 25+ touches per game to have a good performance. In the Saints offense that will never happen
Honestly you might be right. I can see where you're coming from but I don't think it's time to call him a bust just yet. We'll see as the weeks go on.

It's really all about mentality, IF Ingram accepts his role and decides to make the most of it with a view to eventually replacing PT as the go to guy then he'll succeed here. If, like Reggie, he decides he wants to prove he's an every down guy then he probably won't.

Congrats on the win today by the way.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:11 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by perrykemp View Post
Is it time to start worrying about Mark Ingram?

I haven't see anything from him that looks anything like he how he played in college.
Maybe.

I watched him in person at Bama and he has never been the same back since he got his knee hurt. Calibucsfan brings up a good point though. Mark usually got better and better as the clock wound down and his carries added up. Some of that is because the physical style Alabama plays will wear a defense out late. Regardless, I'm not sure he will ever get that type of work with the Saints.

I'm not sure. For one I am biased in his favor and for two I don't think we have ever seen him health and/or properly utilized with the Saints.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:17 AM   #82
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I've never been impressed with him!! They should use Pierre, Sproles, Ivory and Cadet!
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:39 AM   #83
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Ingrim has a great burst for a back of his size....he will be ok. Not worried at all. I think he's pressing....he gets so few carries he's bursting at the seems to make something happen.

all I hope for is that we can play .500 ball till we get Vitt back. If we can do that will be in good shape to make the run.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:48 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calibucsfan View Post
I will probably get a lot of hate for this...but IMO Ingram will never work out for you guys...

For another team? Probably..

For Saints? No way...

He is not a back that can be rotated between 3 backs. He is the kind that needs to get 25+ touches per game to have a good performance. In the Saints offense that will never happen
You might have a point, but I think he's just the kind of back that needs a hole or at least a niche created for him at the line. He's not the type of back like Pierre who creates yards out of nothing. Ingram needs that 4th or 5th step to really get going. But also yeah.... I do have my doubts starting to creep in my head about him. I honestly would just like to feed the rock to Pierre and Sproles then bring in Ivory more in the 2nd half. If I could go back in time I wouldn't make that trade to pick Ingram, but at the time it was the right decision. Maybe thats what makes it more frustrating....cuz there's no one really to blame....
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:56 AM   #85
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I remember seeing a few plays where it looked like he was running particularly well and hard. And then he got up and was wearing #23. I don't see why Pierre shouldn't be getting every single one of those touches, unless we're trying to save him for something.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:07 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatCitySaint View Post
Ingrim has a great burst for a back of his size....he will be ok. Not worried at all. I think he's pressing....he gets so few carries he's bursting at the seems to make something happen.

all I hope for is that we can play .500 ball till we get Vitt back. If we can do that will be in good shape to make the run.
This is what concerns me most. Reggie Bush used to press until he finally realized that he shouldn't try for a home run every time he touched the ball.

Unfortunately, I think that the Payton system of "running back by committee" has a way of leaving behind the runner who needs to carry the ball a lot in order to get a head of steam going. They just aren't going to get as many carries as they need or want. I hope it works out for Mark because I know he's got it in him. Just has to work it out within himself so he's okay with it, IMHO.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:10 AM   #87
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Quote:
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I've never been impressed with him!! They should use Pierre, Sproles, Ivory and Cadet!
ok besides one decent pre seaon just what has cadet done?
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:11 AM   #88
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I remember seeing a few plays where it looked like he was running particularly well and hard. And then he got up and was wearing #23. I don't see why Pierre shouldn't be getting every single one of those touches, unless we're trying to save him for something.
thats how I feel. I think PT needs a bigger part in the gameplans... period. he should have 15 touches every week, minimum. when PT gets the ball, it seems good things always happen.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:14 AM   #89
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Here's a breakdown of all 6 runs by Ingram.


Mark Ingram's 1st carry - 1st-and-10 - handoff up the middle - 1 yard gain
-Offense: 2WR-2TE-1RB bunch formation w/ Collins and D. Thomas lined up off the line on each side of the OL (Collins lining up as a TE)
-Defense: 3-4, 5 defenders on the LOS, 9 defenders in the box

-Bushrod, DLP, and Evans get zero push, allowing the RDE Bowen and NT Cofield to stuff the hole
-Collins gets beat and ends up pushing ILB Riley into Ingram
-Cofield beat DLP and was in on the tackle
-Morgan gets beat by S Gomes and would've been ready to tackle Ingram anyway
-Ingram is first contacted at the LOS and his cutback is filled by Riley who also made the tackle

Not sure what he should've been expected to do. The hole was stuffed and Collins knocked Riley into the tackle. I think 4 Redskins were in on the tackle.


Mark Ingram's 2nd carry - 1st-and-10 - toss to the left - 1 yard gain
-Offense: 2WR-2TE-1RB formation, both TEs lined up left of the OL
-Defense: 4-3, 8 defenders in the box

-Gilmore gets zero push on RDE Orakpo, forcing Ingram to spin it back inside
-ILB Fletcher goes right past D. Thomas and gets in on the tackle
-Grubbs kinda sorta blocks CB Wilson
-Bushrod and DLP are both beat inside, with DT Cofield getting in on the tackle
-Evans couldn't find anyone to block at the 2nd-level, ILB Riley gets past him and in on the tackle
-Streif barely touches LDE Carriker, who ends up making the tackle
-Ingram had to spin back inside due to Gilmore and 4 unblocked Redskins met him there

Again, what do you expect him to do? 4 unblocked Redskins were there to make the tackle and that's after Ingram spun away from Orakpo. The hole was completely filled by maroon.


Mark Ingram's 3rd carry - 1st-and-10 - handoff up the middle - 5 yard gain
-Offense: 2WR-2TE-1RB formation, both TEs D. Thomas and Gilmore lined up left of the OL w/ WR Morgan in between them
-Defense: 3-4, 5 defenders on the LOS, 8 defenders in the box

-Gilmore blocks ROLB Orakpo and seals the hole on the left
-Morgan seals the hole inside on the right, blocking S Gomes
-Bushrod gets pushed back by NT Cofield, forcing Ingram to make a jump-cut to the left
-CB Wilson comes unblocked, fills the hole almost immediately and tackles Ingram

If Gomes doesn't come down into the box, Morgan blocks Wilson instead of Gomes, and Ingram probably gains at least 10. Wilson got to the hole while Ingram was still in it so Ingram couldn't get around him. He did plow over him and pick up an extra 2 yards.


Mark Ingram's 4th carry - 2nd-and-5 - handoff up the middle - no gain
-Offense: 1WR-2TE-2RB I-formation, Graham left of OL and Gilmore right of OL
-Defense: 3-4, 6 defenders on the LOS, 8 defenders in the box

-Bushrod gets zero push on RDE Cofield
-DLP gets zero push on NT Golston
-Strief gets zero push on LDE Carriker
-All 3 defenders converge on the hole and gang-tackle Ingram

Gilmore half-blocked LOLB Kerrigan so if Ingram could've made TWO jump-cuts to the right, he could've gained maybe 3. But we're talking 4-5 yards to his right. Collins went to the left to block Orakpo so he didn't have much help. If you think a RB should be able to make 2 consecutive jump-cuts in the backfield, then you can blame Ingram for missing this one. No hole where the run was supposed to go, though.


Mark Ingram's 5th carry - 2nd-and-6 - handoff up the middle - 6 yard gain
-Offense: 2WR-2TE-1RB w/ Gilmore and D. Thomas lined up left of OL
-Defense: 3-4, 5 defenders on the LOS, 7 defenders in the box

-Gilmore blocks ROLB Orakpo well, sealing the left side of the hole
-D. Thomas ends up blocking RDE Cofield and getting zero push (as expected), forcing Ingram to jump-cut to the left
-Bushrod seems late off the snap and tries to block ILB Riley, but does a bad job and Riley ends up diving into Ingram's path and trips him for the tackle
-S Gomes tries to fill the hole and gets low, but Ingram breaks the arm tackle
-Evans starts blocking LOLB Kerrigan, but he swims past it and would've been in position to finish the play if Riley didn't

Ingram makes a nice move into the hole and then runs through an arm tackle by the safety. But as he was recovering his full balance, Riley ends up under his legs and trips him up. Kerrigan would've been there to clean it up anyway. Still, good run.


Mark Ingram's 6th carry - 3rd-and-1 - handoff up the middle - 2 yard gain

-Offense: 1WR-2TE-1RB, Graham (in motion) and D. Thomas lined up right of OL
-Defense: 4-3, 6 defenders on the LOS, 8 defenders in the box

-Bushrod starts blocking RDT Bowen and then comes off to pick up RDE Orakpo at the last second to kick him out of the play
-Grubbs pulled right and gets zero push on LDE Kerrigan but keeps him from pursuing
-DLP blocks down on Bowen and seals the left-side of the hole
-Evans blocks down on LDT Cofield and turns him out of the play
-Strief doesn't do much of anything
-D. Thomas sorta blocks ILB Fletcher but Fletcher ends up falling on top of Ingram as Ingram went down
-ILB Riley and S Gomes are both unblocked, allowing Riley to tackle Ingram as he came through the line

A positive play in an obvious run down, getting the 1st down. It's hard to tell but it looks like Ingram is jumping or diving through the hole. Looks like there might've been a lot of tangled feet and he didn't want to trip.


Overall Conclusion
Based on watching each of his carries multiple times, what I saw was a RB make positive plays when it was actually possible. He had 3 bad carries, all 3 due to poor blocking. Even if you think he should've made 2 jump-cuts to find a hole, the fact is the blocking didn't open a hole where they were supposed to. And with only 6 carries, a few poor blocking efforts makes your numbers look terrible.

Every time Ingram ran the ball, safeties and LBs were creeping up and they were just filling the box. Until the Saints get away from the tendency of "Ingram = obvious run", this will happen. If we block well, that's fine because Ingram showed he can pick up some yards when there's yards to get. But if they block poorly and defenders are in the backfield and coming untouched to the RB, he's going to have a rough time. He's not going to break 3 or 4 tackles at the LOS, guys.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:16 AM   #90
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Here's PT's 4 runs.


Pierre Thomas' 1st carry - 1st-and-10 - handoff over LT - 6 yard gain
-Offense: 2WR-2TE-1RB w/ Gilmore and D. Thomas lined up left of OL (Thomas standing)
-Defense: 3-4, 5 defenders on the LOD, 7 defenders in the box

-Morgan came in motion from far-left to left of Gilmore and bumped S Gomes (who filled the hole) away from PT
-Gilmore blocked ROLB Orakpo away from the play
-D. Thomas got to the 2nd level and blocked ILB Riley, turning him away from PT
-Bushrod and DLP got zero push but also didn't get beat
-Grubbs got to the 2nd level but no defender was nearby
-CB Wilson shoots in unblocked to latch onto PT, who kinda spins off and falls forward w/ Gomes helping to finish the tackle

Good strong run from PT (as usual). He finished it like he usually does. Good blocking in the hole. None of the blockers got beat, no one got into the backfield, and no one was unblocked until he was through the hole.


Pierre Thomas' 2nd carry - 1st-and-10 - handoff up the middle - 3 yard gain
-Offense: 2WR-1TE-2RB in I-formation w/ Gilmore left of OL, Collins offset to the left and Henderson motioning from the far-left to left of Gilmore
-Defense: 3-4, 5 defenders on the LOS, 7 defenders in the box

-Henderson runs into ROLB Orakpo's back, not doing anything and this allows Orakpo to help tackle PT
-Gilmore blocks down on RDE Bowen and then moves to the 2nd level and ILB Fletcher
-Bushrod blocks Bowen and ends up pushing him to the ground
-Collins chips Orakpo and then knocks S Gomes down on his butt
-Grubbs blocks NT Cofield off the line and out of the play
-DLP keeps LOLB Kerrigan at bay
-Evans pulled left and hits a couple guys, including Gomes
-CB Wilson is unblocked and gets in on the tackle with Orakpo

This play was stuffed by Orakpo. Devery and Collins did a terrible job not blocking Orakpo. Collins just chipped him and kept going while Devery basically bounces off when he pushed him in the back. PT got what he could, but if Orakpo is blocked he probably gets another 2 or 3 just by falling forward.


Pierre Thomas' 3rd carry - 1st-and-10 - handoff over RG - 9 yard gain
-Offense: 1WR-2TE-2RB I-formation w/ Graham left of OL and Gilmore right of OL
-Defense: 3-4, 6 defenders on the LOS, 9 defenders in the box

-Graham cuts ROLB Orakpo
-Grubbs initially blocks RDE Golston but then Bushrod kinda "steals" the assignment so Grubbs gets a piece of ILB Fletcher as Fletcher starts to tackle PT
-DLP gets zero push on NT Cofield but doesn't give up ground either
-Evans helps Strief on RDE Carriker and then goes to the 2nd level, taking S Gomes way out of the play
-Collins meets ILB Riley in the hole, clearing him out of the play
-Henderson locked up on CB Hall late in the play (Hall was way off the line) and didn't let go
-S Williams came untouched (was playing deep) and made the tackle

This run is pure PT. He's stopped for a 2-yard gain but he just spins out of the tackle and gets another 7. Beastly run. I'm not sure what happened between Bushrod and Grubbs but whatever it was allowed Fletcher get a clean shot at PT but PT just got out of it.


Pierre Thomas' 4th carry - 1st-and-10 - handoff over LG - -1 yard gain
-Offense: 1WR-2TE-2RB I-formation w/ Gilmore left of OL and Graham right of OL
-Defense: 3-4, 6 defenders on LOS, 9 defenders in the box

-Gilmore pushes ROLB Orakpo off the LOS 2 yards
-Bushrod chips RDE Bowen and then moves to the 2nd level, sorta pushing S Gomes away
-Grubbs gets zero push on Bowen, totally disrupting the play and forced PT to try and maneuver around him
-Collins got through the hole and put a good hit on ILB Riley
-DLP and Evans both got blocks on NT Cofield
-Strief got good push on LDE Carriker
-Graham cut ROLB Kerrigan low and slowed him down
-CB Hall (lined up over Graham) came right down the line and tackled PT in the backfield

This play was blown up by Bowen. Neither Bushrod nor Grubbs put much of a block on him so while he didn't push Grubbs back, Grubbs was already a step deep from blocking down on Bowen. That extra step deep forced PT to slow down and try to find a hole, allowing Hall time for backside pursuit. There was some room to run if Grubbs isn't in PT's way. Morgan had run Wilson off the play on the left and Gilmore had Orakpo locked up. PT could've bounced it all the way outside and gotten 5-8 yards (depending on whether Orakpo gets off the block or not). Just bad blocking here.


Overall Conclusion
We really only blocked well on the first of PT's runs. The second and third runs were both blown up due to shoddy blocking. PT just went into beast mode on the second carry and it really boosted his stats.
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