African-American teenager shot by neighborhood watch (UPDATE: Shooter now charged)

[v3kt0r]

Originally Posted by El Caliente

Between his penchant for violence

Based on this incident? Or do you have his rap sheet?

[El Caliente]

Originally Posted by v3kt0r

Based on this incident? Or do you have his rap sheet?

I guess I am guilty of watching this on tv, but yes I have seen his rap sheet. A lot of millions of people have.

George Zimmerman's criminal records revealed

Anything to weaken a case, hence the reason Zimmermans people are going after the fact Martin had a record of his own.

Trayvon Martin Case: New Details Emerge As Teen’s Record Comes Into Question; Case Compared to Duke Lacrosse Scandal

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Originally Posted by v3kt0r

Based on this incident? Or do you have his rap sheet?

His rap sheet is public now and has already been discussed.

[NYCsaint]

Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim

Are you saying Zimmerman drew the weapon first? I said I wouldn't allow a guy following me to grab his weapon. If I couldn't get away, I would make sure he couldn't draw his weapon. If the weapon is already drawn, that's another situation, but now you're changing the story.

But what if it was a teenage girl instead of a stocky Hispanic guy?

[chad141fa]

Looking through this thread I like how whichever side you are leaning towards uses certain “descriptive lead -ins” before making their opinion

[livefromDC]

Originally Posted by CHI-TOWNSAINT

Your point is strong enough without the "Z chasing a girl" example. I'd give that up.....it's not a comparable situation and takes away from your point.

It is comparable. We wouldn't remotely be debating if Z's life was endanger if a woman was the victim instead of Martin.

Originally Posted by CHI-TOWNSAINT

BTW, I've had a gun shoved into my ribs and didn't take a swing at the guy holding the gun. If we assume Z did everything you say, he should go to jail for a long time and be subject to mental testing, but I don't think we should forget that Martin could have prevented some of this as well. If he allows Z to retain him until the cops arrive and martin was innocent of any wrong doing, he would have had an opportunity for a civil suit?

Originally Posted by CHI-TOWNSAINT

I think it's getting to be pretty obvious this went one of two ways, either we're going to find out (1) Z killed Martin in cold blood, or (2) Martin didn't like the idea of someone profiling him and took the opportunity to fight him and got shot.

In your opinion of the 2nd scenario, is there any reason to believe that Z, who knows that he has a gun, can say that he fears for his life against an unarmed kid?

Originally Posted by CHI-TOWNSAINT

Look at post 653 to my response for the bolded. If I didn't do anything, why resist? The cops came and figured out it was mistaken identity and they let me go. It took all of 20 minutes, albeit 20 nervous minutes.

Weren't you the one that told me to abandon the argument using the girl. This the same thing. Since you are not a teenage black boy, you are perceived very differently by the world and your perception is different based on how you have been treated in the past. If you were Martin, I would think the outcome would have been very different.

Originally Posted by CHI-TOWNSAINT

What would I blame him for doing? How should I know? None of us know what happened. I could speculate a few things he could have done to instigate a physical altercation, just as I speculate that Z did the same thing.

I asked you because you said that blame should go to both sides.

Originally Posted by SaintBrad

No you cant, but neither was zimmerman breaking the law in anyway.

Zimmerman wasn't acting within the Neighborhood Watch protocols by following Martin or by carrying a gun. NW advises volunteers to never carry weapons. So this wasn't a case of someone acting within the line of duty. As you state, Zimmerman has yet to be found to be breaking any laws. Sadly, that will be the claim when the roles are reversed the next time this happens in Florida. This case as of now is setting a bad precedent.

[SaintBrad]

Originally Posted by JimEverett

Is that really what neighborhood watch does?
I always thought it was just neighbors on the lookout for things and if they saw something they had a call list of other neighbors and/or police.

Going out and following something by car and/or on foot - and with a concealed weapon - just doesn;t sound like neighborhood watch to me.
But I admittedly know little about such programs.

Thats how police recommend it to be. My neighborhood watch had two guys, one carried a baseball bat. And they would pull up to ya, roll down the window and ask a few questions, live here? Where ya headed? Only time I know of that they called the cops was when a cad got broken into, and they saw 3 kids walkin down the street.

[v3kt0r]

Originally Posted by El Caliente

I guess I am guilty of watching this on tv, but yes I have seen his rap sheet. A lot of millions of people have.

George Zimmerman's criminal records revealed

Anything to weaken a case, hence the reason Zimmermans people are going after the fact Martin had a record of his own.

Trayvon Martin Case: New Details Emerge As Teen’s Record Comes Into Question; Case Compared to Duke Lacrosse Scandal

Hadnt seen that because I've been avoiding most of this story. I didn't mean to jump on your comment, but all I've read (or most of the comments) on this forum or the other are people jumping to conclusions.

One commenter on a news site said something to the effect of 'why did this kid get into a confrontation with a security guard?' Like the guy was wearing a uniform....

[JimEverett]

Originally Posted by SaintBrad

Thats how police recommend it to be. My neighborhood watch had two guys, one carried a baseball bat. And they would pull up to ya, roll down the window and ask a few questions, live here? Where ya headed? Only time I know of that they called the cops was when a cad got broken into, and they saw 3 kids walkin down the street.

That seems odd because I know police generally frown on vigilantism. Nor does it seem likely that police would encourage untrained people to follow and confront potential criminals - especially with firearms.

[SaintBrad]

Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim

Well, we don't know that yet. It's possible Zimmerman is not criminally liable in any way. However, if he tried to detain Martin that's illegal. If he shot Martin without being threatened with his life, that's illegal.

The point I'm making is who bears the most responsibility for the overall situation? The unarmed 17 year old walking home who was not breaking any laws? Or the armed man who left the vehicle even when advised not to by the police?

I see what you mean, and I agree with your assessment. However, if Martin attacked first, then IMO he holds all the responsibility. If Zimmerman tried to restrain first Martin (which I think is most likely) then Zimmerman holds responsibility (but only in this specific situation of Martin not breaking any laws)

[Det. Brees]

Originally Posted by Blodaksen

I'm not from Georgia. Never was, and never studied anything about Georgia's criminal process. The case discussed in this thread occurred in Florida, so Georgia has no bearing. Many of your statements on this matter appear to be given from the perspective of Georgia procedure, which is understandable if that is what you know. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt by asking that question. But if you want to get all snotty about it, then feel free.

Police video of Zimmerman shows no sign of scuffle - Video on msnbc.com

Here's a few excerpts from the transcript of this video report:

>"> thanks, matt. joining me now are eugene oh donald, professor of police studies and of law at the law of criminal justice . and msnbc contributors today. and your story of the prosecutor. not an assistant state attorney. but being on the scene. whether he was in that station where we are nowing george zimmerman was taken.

>> well, the source who i spoke with early is this morning didn't make that clear. but what is clear is that this case was investigated a a very high level . at the highest level . we're talking a sunday night, after dinner time . the chief of police went to this the scene of the shooting, which in it of itself is unusual. but then there was a confrontation between the chief, the guy who's charged with supervising criminal investigation for the department, and according to this source, the state attorney, the guy who would eventually get this case from police and have ultimately recused himself because he wanted to avoid an appearance of a conflict of interest. the high level at the decision not to arrest and not to charge zimmerman , that in it of itself is noteworthy. "
........

">> well, you have george zimmerman 's account, which is definitionly the least reliable piece of evidence. he has a motive to lie. he's facing homicide charges. definitely suspect right off the bat. what you're looking for is object bive, credible evidence that's beyond dispute. this video shows that it's beyond dispute that there are no serious physical injuries. he's not in the hospital. there's no bruising that's observable. if he alleges that he was in a life and death struggle, this video belies that climb. a short time after this video, this in conjunction with the audiotapes, these are objective pieces of evidence that you put great faith in.

>> it would be great if you're on the zimmerman side of the story to look at the video and say there's something that supports my story. doesn't have to prove your story. for example, if he had a bloody nose , sure. the people who responded to the scene as they say in their report could have helped him clean up the bloody nose at the scene. but would there be no blood on his shirt?

>> the red jacket might not show what we're looking for. on the front if he had a bloody nose . if he was at very close quarters shooting someone who he's almost embracing in the chest, would there not be blood splatter onto him? onto his body if he was that the close in an altercation or at least his own bloody nose ? some evidence of his own bloody nose dripping on the front of that shirt. "
......

">> now we don't have an accompanying autopsy report on the body of trayvon martin . what we do have, and joining me now, is richard kurtz . he's the director of the kurtz funeral home . he prepared trayvon's body for the funeral. we have him joining us by phone. mr. kurtz , can you tell us what you saw in the condition of trayvon martin 's body that might be consistent with having been in an altercation? any wounds to his knuckles? if you're throwing punches, even hitting flesh, even hitting jaws of other people, when you throw punches, your hands do not come out unscathed.

>> caller: the only thing that i was able to see was the gunshot wound . examining his hand, i could not see any evidence like he had been punching somebody, as the news media say he was punching.

>> i want you to listen to something that trayvon martin 's father said today in an interview with the " washington post ." i want you to listen to this, because he is describing what the police told him about what happened that night in the altercation between trayvon martin and george zimmerman . let's listen to what trayvon martin 's father says here.

>> he reached in his pocket to get his cell phone and that's when trayvon attacked him. he said trayvon hit him, knocked him to the ground, got on top of him, put his knees on his arms, pinned him down. put his left hand over his mouth, told him shot the "f" up, and proceeded beating him with the other hand. zimmerman then says he was able to unholster his weapon and fire one shot, and trayvon fell back and said you got me. that's what the police initially told me.

>> richard kurtz , when you looked at trayvon's body, did you see anything that would in any way support that story.

>> i didn't see anything that would support that story. "


There has to be a reason why that autopsy report is still sealed. If it is as notoriously difficult to garner a conviction on a "stand your ground" law as they say, then if this autopsy report gave credence to Zimmerman's story you would imagine that law enforcement officials would've rushed to release that simply to deflect the withering criticism they are enduring.

Sanford, Florida (FL) profile: population, maps, real estate, averages, homes, statistics, relocation, travel, jobs, hospitals, schools, crime, moving, houses, news, sex offenders

I would love to see Zimmerman's cell phone logs to see who he called after the shooting. For a city of over 50k population with over 100 police officers on staff, and a homicide rate above the national average, I do find it odd that the Chief of Police would be on scene, but not unheard of.

What I do find fascinating is that the State's Attorney spoke to the Chief and the Lead Investigator face to face on a Sunday night about this.

I did not mean to bet snotty , was just a little offended by things you implied. If I took them wrong then please accept my apology. Even though procedure is different from city to city and state to state I still have a strong working knowledge of how things work. The fact that martin was found laying face down proves nothing on its on merit. There are simply to many plausable reasons why he was face down to prove anything. Just as an example when Martin was shot the bullet strike may not have killed him instantly. When Zimmerman pulled the gun Martin may have recoiled away from Zimmerman and when shot he fell next to him.

I understand people will look at the statements and form opinions we all do this. However we must be open minded enough accept all the facts so we can find the truth. If Zimmerman did in fact commit a crime I want him brought to justice. I wish that they would hurry up and take this to the grand jury. However if the jury returns a no bill I prey that a press conference is held explaining the facts in this case. If not this will be ugly.

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Originally Posted by SaintBrad

I see what you mean, and I agree with your assessment. However, if Martin attacked first, then IMO he holds all the responsibility. If Zimmerman tried to restrain first Martin (which I think is most likely) then Zimmerman holds responsibility (but only in this specific situation of Martin not breaking any laws)

There is a narrow window where Martin would hold more responsibility - if in fact he jumped Zimmerman from behind and popped him, as in Zimmerman's account. At that point, it's closer to 50-50 in my mind on resposnibility. Zimmerman still left his vehicle, and it makes no sense to do that unless you're looking to confront the individual, but if his weapon wasn't drawn, and Martin initiated the confrontation, then it partially mitigates responsibility in my mind.

[JimEverett]

Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim

There is a narrow window where Martin would hold more responsibility - if in fact he jumped Zimmerman from behind and popped him, as in Zimmerman's account. At that point, it's closer to 50-50 in my mind on resposnibility. Zimmerman still left his vehicle, and it makes no sense to do that unless you're looking to confront the individual, but if his weapon wasn't drawn, and Martin initiated the confrontation, then it partially mitigates responsibility in my mind.

I think the Florida stand your ground law comes into play here.
Before the law Zimmerman is culpable of some degree of homicide even if Martin initiated an attack. Zimmerman at least acted recklessly or negligently in creating the situation.

The law gives Zimmerman plenty of cover, however. As long as Zimmerman was not breaking the law and was where he had a legal right to be he not only could create the dangerous situation but also escalate it in any number of ways and still not be culpable as long as there was a reasonable belief - at some point - of serious bodily harm or death.

[SaintBrad]

Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim

There is a narrow window where Martin would hold more responsibility - if in fact he jumped Zimmerman from behind and popped him, as in Zimmerman's account. At that point, it's closer to 50-50 in my mind on resposnibility. Zimmerman still left his vehicle, and it makes no sense to do that unless you're looking to confront the individual, but if his weapon wasn't drawn, and Martin initiated the confrontation, then it partially mitigates responsibility in my mind.

See, imo, whoever initiated physical contact first is the responsible party.

[SaintBrad]

Originally Posted by JimEverett

I think the Florida stand your ground law comes into play here.
Before the law Zimmerman is culpable of some degree of homicide even if Martin initiated an attack. Zimmerman at least acted recklessly or negligently in creating the situation.

The law gives Zimmerman plenty of cover, however. As long as Zimmerman was not breaking the law and was where he had a legal right to be he not only could create the dangerous situation but also escalate it in any number of ways and still not be culpable as long as there was a reasonable belief - at some point - of serious bodily harm or death.

Personally, im a big supporter of floridas laws in those terms if they could find a way to negate the.provoking/escalating.