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Old 03-17-2012, 12:39 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Cosmic201 View Post
I don't.
It's a public record. They were gonna get their *** handed to them in court if they kept dragging their feet about it.
It's also kinda hard to not charge him saying they have no evidence and then to say they will not release the tapes because it's evidence.
True but I base my statement on the fact I believe he will be charged. Did they announce they are not charging the shooter?
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:26 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Flipx99 View Post
It's been a couple of days now.
To answer one part of the question in reference to citizens legally being able to arrest.
In most states citizens have this power.



Georgia Code - Criminal Procedure - Title 17, Section 17-4-60 - Georgia Attorney Resources - Georgia Laws
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.




Georgia Shoplifting Laws


51-7-60

Whenever the owner or operator of a mercantile establishment or any agent or employee of the owner or operator detains, arrests, or causes to be detained or arrested any person reasonably thought to be engaged in shoplifting and, as a result of the detention or arrest, the person so detained or arrested brings an action for false arrest or false imprisonment against the owner, operator, agent, or employee, no recovery shall be had by the plaintiff in such action where it is established by competent evidence:

(1) That the plaintiff had so conducted himself or behaved in such manner as to cause a man of reasonable prudence to believe that the plaintiff, at or immediately prior to the time of the detention or arrest, was committing the offense of shoplifting, as defined by Code Section 16-8-14; or

(2) That the manner of the detention or arrest and the length of time during which such plaintiff was detained was under all the circumstances reasonable.

Many states have these laws to protect the owners of a business vs. shoplifters. Not covered but is shown by this law, a person does not have to commit a felony to be detained/arrested by a shop owner.

I believe that this thoroughly proves that citizens have the authority and right to arrest/detain criminals when the crime is committed in their presence. However, we normally do not recommend that citizens get involved because you never know what level of violence a criminal is willing to commit to not be arrested.

Also the term arrest means more than to put someone in jail. In criminal law books words will be defined in the beginning of a code sections, however in other sections it may be added to or taken away from. Im certain some of our atty's will support this claim. Also to help support this claim in GA traffic code arrest also includes being issued a traffic citation due to the crime being stopped at the time also because charges being brought against the suspect. However the suspect is being released with the promise to post bond, pay the fine, or appear in court.

Arrest:
to detain; to slow down; to capture; to imprison
http://www.english-test.net/toeic/vo...ons.php#arrest



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Old 03-17-2012, 04:36 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
To answer one part of the question in reference to citizens legally being able to arrest.
In most states citizens have this power.



Georgia Code - Criminal Procedure - Title 17, Section 17-4-60 - Georgia Attorney Resources - Georgia Laws
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.




Georgia Shoplifting Laws


51-7-60

Whenever the owner or operator of a mercantile establishment or any agent or employee of the owner or operator detains, arrests, or causes to be detained or arrested any person reasonably thought to be engaged in shoplifting and, as a result of the detention or arrest, the person so detained or arrested brings an action for false arrest or false imprisonment against the owner, operator, agent, or employee, no recovery shall be had by the plaintiff in such action where it is established by competent evidence:

(1) That the plaintiff had so conducted himself or behaved in such manner as to cause a man of reasonable prudence to believe that the plaintiff, at or immediately prior to the time of the detention or arrest, was committing the offense of shoplifting, as defined by Code Section 16-8-14; or

(2) That the manner of the detention or arrest and the length of time during which such plaintiff was detained was under all the circumstances reasonable.

Many states have these laws to protect the owners of a business vs. shoplifters. No covered but is shown by this law a person does not have to commit a felony to be detained/arrested by a shop owner.

I believe that this thoroughly proves that citizens have the authority and right to arrest/detain criminals when the crime is committed in their presence. However, we normally do not recommend that citizens get involved because you never know what level of violence a criminal is willing to commit to not be arrested.

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Isn't the key words here that the offense should in fact have been comitted ??? - Not that he suspect that an offense may be committed ?

It also states that the crime should happen in his presence or within his knowledge.

Neither of those conditions are true in the current case leaving his actions beyond the coverage of the law.
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:39 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic201 View Post
I don't.
It's a public record. They were gonna get their *** handed to them in court if they kept dragging their feet about it.
It's also kinda hard to not charge him saying they have no evidence and then to say they will not release the tapes because it's evidence.
correct it is public record but if its evidence it should not be released to the public. That's all i'm saying. There's a little thing about having a fair trial for the accused.

See Ive always stated I believe the shooter would go to jail. My concern was why he thought the kid was suspicious. It turns out he thought this because the kid had a hoody on and was walking slow in the rain. Heck most people that have a hoody will put i on in the rain and lots of peole walk slow. Shooter is a idiot, it appears.
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:43 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Isn't the key words here that the offense should in fact have been comitted ??? - Not that he suspect that an offense may be committed ?

It also states that the crime should happen in his presence or within his knowledge.

Neither of those conditions are true in the current case leaving his actions beyond the coverage of the law.
This is true, but this is not about the original case this is about claims made that we has citizens don't have this right to arrest and implications I don't know my job because I made this statement. Which, my statements are true.
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:18 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
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Well, don't do it for my benefit. I do, however, think the exercise can benefit you. I don't want you out there arresting citizens because they failed to detain "suspicious looking" kids.

Criminal liability for an omission is rare, and the fact that you don't seem to be able to articulate the limited circumstances in which that can occur indicates that some quick and dirty internet research on the topic might be a good use of your time. It's irresponsible for a law enforcement officer not to have a good grasp on when there is a right to detain and a duty to detain (or otherwise prevent a crime.)
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:19 PM   #142
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:19 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
This is true, but this is not about the original case this is about claims made that we has citizens don't have this right to arrest and implications I don't know my job because I made this statement. Which, my statements are true.
In English, please...
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:08 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flipx99 View Post
Well, don't do it for my benefit. I do, however, think the exercise can benefit you. I don't want you out there arresting citizens because they failed to detain "suspicious looking" kids.

Criminal liability for an omission is rare, and the fact that you don't seem to be able to articulate the limited circumstances in which that can occur indicates that some quick and dirty internet research on the topic might be a good use of your time. It's irresponsible for a law enforcement officer not to have a good grasp on when there is a right to detain and a duty to detain (or otherwise prevent a crime.)
No one said he would be arrested for not arresting a suspicious kid. Its become evident that you do not comprehend or you want me to be saying what you want to hear instead of the truth. I stated the fact that you "Can" be arrested for failure to act. I have addressed it slightly when I talked about being with friends and they commit a crime. I do not understand your failure to understand the basic fact that if your with someone that commits a crime in some instances your a party to the crime . Simply based on the fact you fail to act. Im headed to work. Ill discuss that at another time. It appears it will benefit you not me. I already have a knowledge of the law. It appears some here even those proclaiming to have studied the law do not including yourself. Do you actually believe you can sit by and watch people commit crimes, do nothing , and your guilty of nothing.
To answer the question in some instances yes. In some, no.

Example: Friend ask you for a ride to the store. You pull up and he goes inside. Shots are fired he runs out jumps in the car and you drive off. You do nothing. What can happen to you? Later you hear the store was robbed and the attendant shot and killed. Still you do nothing. What can happen to you?
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:15 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by insidejob View Post
In English, please...
You can be held civilly and criminally liable, in some instances, If you sit by and watch people commit crimes and you do nothing. I have made attempts to make you comprehend this but you are unable to for some reason. So you don't get confused, at this time this has nothing to do with the case at hand.
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:22 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
You can be held civilly and criminally liable, in some instances, If you sit by and watch people commit crimes and you do nothing. I have made attempts to make you comprehend this but you are unable to for some reason. So you don't get confused, at this time this has nothing to do with the case at hand.
Now I have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. I just wanted you to clear up whatever the hell you were trying to say that made absolutely zero sense...that's why I quoted it. This is not helpful. Oh well.
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:28 PM   #147
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:33 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
Example: Friend ask you for a ride to the store. You pull up and he goes inside. Shots are fired he runs out jumps in the car and you drive off. You do nothing. What can happen to you? Later you hear the store was robbed and the attendant shot and killed. Still you do nothing. What can happen to you?
I think that's a terrible fact pattern to try to prove your point. First, it really is off topic (we were talking about liability through a simple ommission, you have moved on apparently). Second, your attempt to change the subject and show where I would be liable fails. Let's assume that the facts at trial are proven exactly as you presented them:

I can't be held liable for conspiracy because I did not have any knowledge that he was going to committ a crime.

Likwise, I can't be held liable as an accessory because, while I did provide assitance, I did not have knowledge that he had committed a crime.

Remember, you provided me with the facts that I drove off and later learned that the store had been robbed and the attendant was killed. In your scenario, I committed no act whatsoever after I found out that a crime had been committed.

Unless you can dig up a statute where I can be held criminally liable as an accessory under these facts under a negligence theory, or strictly liable (with no showing of intent), I think you need to go back to the drawing board.

Oh, and as far as the failure to report the crime -- there may be one or two states that impose criminal liability for failing to report a crime. The general rule is that there is no such duty (outside of some special relationship, such as a school administrator, which I have mentioned earlier).

BTW, if you really wanted to analyze the potential liability with any confidence then you would need to know what state you are in. I am speaking in terms of what the most widely accepted rules are. A particular state can pass laws defining the elements of a crime that would change the analysis.
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:50 PM   #149
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I think that's a terrible fact pattern to try to prove your point. First, it really is off topic (we were talking about liability through a simple ommission, you have moved on apparently). Second, your attempt to change the subject and show where I would be liable fails. Let's assume that the facts at trial are proven exactly as you presented them:

I can't be held liable for conspiracy because I did not have any knowledge that he was going to committ a crime.

Likwise, I can't be held liable as an accessory because, while I did provide assitance, I did not have knowledge that he had committed a crime.

Remember, you provided me with the facts that I drove off and later learned that the store had been robbed and the attendant was killed. In your scenario, I took no act whatsoever after I found out that a crime had been committed.
Oh, and as far as the failure to report the crime -- there may be one or two states that impose criminal liability for failing to report a crime. The general rule is that there is no such duty (outside of some special relationship, such as a school administrator, which I have mentioned earlier).
The courts are going to say differently . You heard shots and you friend ran from the seen yet you drove him away and attempted to hide this evidence by not reporting it. The later it was confirmed to you that a robbery / murder occurred yet you still did nothing. Chances are you would be arrested and convicted of the crime as an accessory.
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:00 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
The courts are going to say differently . You heard shots and you friend ran from the seen yet you drove him away and attempted to hide this evidence by not reporting it. The later it was confirmed to you that a robbery / murder occurred yet you still did nothing. Chances are you would be arrested and convicted of the crime as an accessory.
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Well, you are analyzing this like a cop (do we have enough to go trial). I am talking about whether the facts show each element of the crime was met.

Do you care to rebutt anything I said? Or is this an indication of why cops stand on the courthouse steps and complain about how those sneaky criminal defense lawyers get "criminals" off?
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