Chaz Bono turning into Charlie Weis

[St. PJ]

Originally Posted by TulsaSaint

Apparently you just compared transsexuals to pedophiles and liars, and I don't really want to dignify that with a response.

No. I compared fixing a mental problem by making removing/adding body parts.

"feeling you are trapped in the body of the wrong sex and were somehow supposed to have the other set of physical characteristics."-- shouts out mental disorder. I don't doubt that that is what they feel. How many women do you know who feel worthless and tolerate men who treat them like garbage? Just because a person feels a certain way does not mean their feelings/opinions are based in reality. Ted Bundy and Charles Manson had plenty of feelings too, but because they felt a certain way doesn't justify their actions.

And as far as "my solution to gay people" goes, I believe some people are born with qualities of the opposite sex. I some of those people from the get-go have homosexual tendencies. I don't judge them for acting on those tendancies any more than I judge myself for acting on heterosexual tendancies. But in both cases, HOW one acts on the tendancies can be considered moral or immoral.

[TulsaSaint]

Originally Posted by pjgaryjr

It's not a disconnect between body and how they feel inside. That's the lie they use to justify it. The disconnect is between reality and fantasy.

Originally Posted by pjgaryjr

"feeling you are trapped in the body of the wrong sex and were somehow supposed to have the other set of physical characteristics."-- shouts out mental disorder. I don't doubt that that is what they feel.

So which is it? Is that how they feel or not?

[TulsaSaint]

Oh, and you still haven't answered the question I've raised several times and that other people have mentioned too.

"First, how do you know how they feel inside and whether they're lying? I don't think you're a transsexual yourself, and I'd be stunned if you have ever known one or knowingly talked to one, so I don't know how you could know this. Second, who are you to explain to them what's reality and what's fantasy? For them, the reality is that they feel one way and look another, and they're trying to fix that disconnect. What makes your reality more real?"

In other words, who made you the arbiter of what's real and what's normal and what's psychologically healthy?

[KardiacKat]

Damn, I hate having to catch up on the good threads.

Originally Posted by LSSpam

We've had this discussion regarding racial designations as well. It's very simple

You refer to someone by the self-identified term they choose for themselves, as long as it's within reason. Anything else is disrespectful. If you want to be "Mr.", i'll call you "Mr.". If you want me to say "sir", i'll say sir. If you want to be called "Tom", i'll call you Tom. Again, anything else is clear disrespect.

This isn't complicated. There aren't deep inner ethical or scientific questions involved. Nor archaic english rules. There is no metaphysical discussion necessary.


You have a right to determine what people should identify you by and people should respect that by default.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by pjgaryjr

I don't know. But I would imagine that the amount of hate and low esteem they have for themselves is not how God views them. But for the sake of PC, lets say God doesn't exist and they have no maker. It doesn't change the fact that they hate themselves and have an unhealthy self esteem. It doesn't take a phd to understand that, and it doesn't take a phd to understand that a cosmetic procedure peformed by a md isn't the cure it all for the mental/emotional problems that have led the person to the point of believing they are completely worthless and not a person unless they are a person of the opposite sex. And not addressing that issue or saying a cosmetic procedure is what is going to address that issue is a bold lie.

Are you even aware that prior to a surgery the patient must live, usually for a period of three years, every day as their "chosen" gender? In other words, Chaz Bono, prior to surgery, has to live for this period of time presenting herself as male. Dressing as a male, adopting that role. After that period of time and the surgery, then he will be "male" in terms of physical appearance. This waiting period is there to address the concerns you seem to have about a person's mental health.

Originally Posted by stunpals

well the thread started off with promise.

Now I want everyone to call me Doctor Stunpals... you know... as a courtesy

Are you a doctor? Do you present yourself as such? But in any case, if it makes you happy I will be delighted to call you Doctor Stunpals.

Originally Posted by pjgaryjr

How is it any different than the guys who get calf implants, or the women who get breast implants, or those who get face lifts, liposuction, ect? One way or the other, they aren't happy with themselves. They do it for vanity, or to improve self esteem, or to feel acceptable to their skewered image of self. It's not a disconnect between body and how they feel inside. That's the lie they use to justify it. The disconnect is between reality and fantasy. The remedy should be changing the underlying reason they don't accept their body, the reason they disconnect their identity from reality and only feel validated as a person if their reality matches their fantasy. That reason has more to do with self esteem and acceptance than the physical reality their body exists in. And we are only having this argument because of technological medical advances in the past 30 years. 99.99% of human existance never had the "option".

You don't "cure" a pedophile by cutting of his penis. You don't cure a liar by cutting out his toungue. The problem is an emotional and mental one.

First, why do you care? Second, what if a person is perfectly happy with themselves, but wishes they had bigger ****? There are plenty of mentally healthy people who want to change something about their appearance and do so. And OMG, I just remembered that cpg is changing his middle name to Danger. Does he need a psychological evaluation to do that?

I will grant that you are sincere in this belief you have that this is all some deep mental illness, and is best cured by the love of Jesus or by some psychological counseling. However, most experts would disagree with you.

And why are you so against people being happy in whatever way they see fit, so long as it doesn't harm another?

[Saintman2884]

Just my two cents here, but most human beings, heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, or possibly asexual, is not exactly you turn on and off with the frequency of a long lasting light bulb every 3-4 years. Just as I've known from a very early age that I'm heterosexual, it usually manifests itself by puberty or even before that. I don't think I sat down when I was 11 or 12 and made a choice over what my sexuality was, it was simple biology. Nothing very complex at all.

Which if it's okay for me to ask, Was Chastity Bono questioning her own femininity that led her to undergo this hormone replacement procedure or at some point maybe recently she questioning her own sexuality again? She has said she knew by her mid-teens she was a lesbian, does this hormone replacement procedure make her a heterosexual now or still a homosexual?

I'm merely asking for some clarity, don't see it as anything more then that.

[KardiacKat]

2884, it has been my understanding that she always felt attracted to women, therefore being a lesbian would seem the natural choice. As time went on, she felt that she really should have been born physically male, and that she was not simply lesbian.

[iron error]

Tulsa, how what percentage of homosexual behavior out there do you think is like Chaz's situation?

You know, where a girl likes another girl and we assume she is lesbian, but they are attracted to the girl because they are acting like a guy because they actually always felt like a boy.

[Squeezebox]

Originally Posted by pjgaryjr

I think reality is in black and white.

I would have never guessed.

[BullDawg]

I used to be very critical in my views of gays and lesbians until I began to fear an ironic outcome with one of my sons being gay. So far I'm 2 for 3 in the straight son category so it must be working.

[TulsaSaint]

Originally Posted by iron error

Tulsa, how what percentage of homosexual behavior out there do you think is like Chaz's situation?

You know, where a girl likes another girl and we assume she is lesbian, but they are attracted to the girl because they are acting like a guy because they actually always felt like a boy.

I think that really happens in some cases. I think it depends a lot on the culture. In Brazil, especially in rural areas, it's common for effeminate-acting boys, when they get older, to start dressing in women's clothes, get industrial-grade silicone breasts injected, take hormones, and start working as transgendered prostitutes (big market for that in Brazil and Italy, of all places). But in this case, the guys dressed as girls, although they identify as women and act like women, very seldom want to actually have a sex change.

But the vast majority of gay guys I know in the US - and I know quite a few - see themselves as men and are attracted to men. I've known only one who was gay because he felt like a straight woman trapped in a man's body.

[Utah Saints]

Did someone really make a crack to sex change comparison?

A better comparison is crack to religion.

[ErikH]

TulsaSaint & KardiacKat: Thank you for your intelligent, kind, enlightened, polite and respectful attitude towards those in the LGBT community. It is refreshing to see.
I have no desire to argue religion with pjgary or anyone else as I consider myself a Christian and have all respect for God.....
However, before condemning anyone for their sexuality I want accountability for those whose sins are 10X worse: rapists, child molesters, thieves, etc. and those "Christians" who lied and cheated to cause irreparable harm to myself and others because of their behavior.
Someone who causes pain and suffering in mental, emotional and/or physical harm to others are 100X worse sinners than anyone who commits any sexual sin.
Just my .02.......

[KardiacKat]

Originally Posted by ErikH

TulsaSaint & KardiacKat: Thank you for your intelligent, kind, enlightened, polite and respectful attitude towards those in the LGBT community. It is refreshing to see.

I'm all for love, I'm all for happiness.

[TulsaSaint]

I should certainly hope that my attitudes toward gay people are "intelligent, kind, enlightened, polite, and respectful." My partner would be most displeased if they weren't!

[from the plaines]

Originally Posted by TulsaSaint

Until you've lived in a transsexual person's skin - or even known one - perhaps you should hold off on self-righteous, know-it-all comments like this.

Was is the nature of the comment that drew this response? Or iyo does some one need to walk a mile before they could have a critical opinion on this topic? If she wants to cut her body to bits, and pump her body full of chemicals, she can knock herself out. In the end I dont know how much it changes. Since at the very core of her being she is still a female. So changing the window dressing seems like a very painful moot gesture. I am not saying that she should be banned from getting it.

But I want to get your thoughts on something. Do you think that it is a good idea to have people embrace that idea out right? or do you think that people should try and become more comfortable with who they are, in their born form? I used to date a womens study major who was very active in the GLTG group at her school. And a big part of the lesbian groups she was a part of, was being comfortable with who you are. And that it is ok who you are. It seems like the whole transgendered almost turns that on its head when it comes to the operations?

And lastly when it comes to addressing some one by titles Its good to be respectful of peoples wishes. But on the other I can undertand why some one would not want to call chaz in this case mr. And I wouldnt flame them for that either. Some people have a more fluid ideal of identity, and some people have a more static ideal.