Is there a God?

[DaveXA]

Originally Posted by Sarcastic

It's a belief. You don't "choose" that

It's the central problem with Pascal's Wager - if you can just "decide" to believe something to play it safe, then you are either lying to everyone or you are quite the weak-minded individual

I would love to believe in god - I can see how at times it would be a great comfort. I just don't, not because I don't want to, just because it's so, well...unbelievable.

I'm not understanding why belief is not a choice. I would think it's a choice. I can choose or not choose to believe something. If I find that my belief isn't right, then of course I'll choose to change to my belief to something that is right.

What am I missing?

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by DaveXA

I'm not understanding why belief is not a choice. I would think it's a choice. I can choose or not choose to believe something. If I find that my belief isn't right, then of course I'll choose to change to my belief to something that is right.

What am I missing?

Can you choose to believe there is no God? If so, would you truly believe that or would you just be lying to yourself?

[ClayT101]

Originally Posted by Sarcastic

I would love to believe in god - I can see how at times it would be a great comfort. I just don't, not because I don't want to, just because it's so, well...unbelievable.

Yes, there is so much more peace of mind to know that when you die, there is actually something waiting for you. Live your live well and you will be rewarded. There is really nothing to worry about. As for me, when my life is over, it's over...no more, no less.

[DaveXA]

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

Can you choose to believe there is no God? If so, would you truly believe that or would you just be lying to yourself?

In this world, sure you can. Now when we move on, not so much because the full truth of the afterlife will be made known (an assumption) and all will know at that time.

[Bleu Raeder]

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

Can you choose to believe there is no God? If so, would you truly believe that or would you just be lying to yourself?

Given free will you can choose to believe anything you wish to believe. Whether or not you would be lying to yourself is based on facts in evidence and how you interpret them to support your choice to believe or not believe something.

The central tenet of the Bible is that you must have faith. Your faith is based on how you interpret what you believe are the facts in evidence. You might also lack the ability to interpret evidence. An example would be that of a person suffering from red / green color blindness. They have no way to interpret the redness or greenness of something. They must rely on other evidence (such as someone else saying that the object in question is red) and have faith that what they are being told is correct.

Faith cannot exist in a vacuum especially where the human thought process is concerned. Your decision to believe or not believe in God is shaped by the evidence that you have gathered during your experience in this life and how you interpret that evidence. If your interpretation supports one or the other there is an equal chance that you are lying to yourself but only because your interpretation was wrong and / or you made a conscious decision to go against the evidence provided to you. You cannot lie to yourself by accident.

[Sarcastic]

I'm not sure you all quite have a grasp of the terms "choose" and "believe"

[Yoweigh]

bleau raeder is making sense to me, as long as he's not really comparing a lack of religious beliefs to color blindness. i'd argue that the chances aren't equal, but that's just my interpretation of the evidence or something.

if i were to twist his idea to suit my purposes, i would say that religion is like wearing god-tinted peril sensitive sunglasses. they make everything look like god to the wearer, thereby influencing their interpretation of the evidence. when the world gets too confusing they turn black.

[Bleu Raeder]

Originally Posted by Yoweigh

bleau raeder is making sense to me, as long as he's not really comparing a lack of religious beliefs to color blindness. i'd argue that the chances aren't equal, but that's just my interpretation of the evidence or something.

if i were to twist his idea to suit my purposes, i would say that religion is like wearing god-tinted peril sensitive sunglasses. they make everything look like god to the wearer, thereby influencing their interpretation of the evidence. when the world gets too confusing they turn black.

No, just using color blindness as an example that is easy to digest. Many do not have the ability to interpret what is going on around them in life. They may look at something and not be able to differentiate between science or divinity because they lack the tools to make an interpretation.

Either way lying to yourself requires culpability.

[Yoweigh]

Originally Posted by Bleu Raeder

not be able to differentiate between science or divinity because they lack the tools to make an interpretation.

Dunning–Kruger effect

Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell

One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.

[DaveXA]

Originally Posted by Sarcastic

I'm not sure you all quite have a grasp of the terms "choose" and "believe"

Care to elaborate?

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by Bleu Raeder

Given free will you can choose to believe anything you wish to believe. Whether or not you would be lying to yourself is based on facts in evidence and how you interpret them to support your choice to believe or not believe something.

The central tenet of the Bible is that you must have faith. Your faith is based on how you interpret what you believe are the facts in evidence. You might also lack the ability to interpret evidence. An example would be that of a person suffering from red / green color blindness. They have no way to interpret the redness or greenness of something. They must rely on other evidence (such as someone else saying that the object in question is red) and have faith that what they are being told is correct.

Faith cannot exist in a vacuum especially where the human thought process is concerned. Your decision to believe or not believe in God is shaped by the evidence that you have gathered during your experience in this life and how you interpret that evidence. If your interpretation supports one or the other there is an equal chance that you are lying to yourself but only because your interpretation was wrong and / or you made a conscious decision to go against the evidence provided to you. You cannot lie to yourself by accident.

Evidence is irrelevant if you have the ability to choose what you believe. Also, lying to yourself wouldn't be possible since if you're lying, you wouldn't really believe it.

If you're reading this on a computer monitor right now, can you choose to believe you're not really looking at a monitor? Can you really believe that even though you can see it and feel it? Then, 5 seconds after you choose to believe it's not there, can you choose to truly believe it's there again? Then 5 seconds after that, can you choose to believe it's really an elephant? Is that possible without being insane?

[E Pluribus Unum]

Originally Posted by DaveXA

In this world, sure you can. Now when we move on, not so much because the full truth of the afterlife will be made known (an assumption) and all will know at that time.

So you, DaveXA, can choose right now at this very moment to truly believe with all your heart that God doesn't exist? You have that ability?

[PHdeacon]

Originally Posted by Denzien

I actually really enjoy a lot of TV shows about the Bible or religion in general and find the topic fascinating - finding historical sites mentioned there, etc. Deep down I think I want to believe, but like you I just can't because it ultimately makes no sense.

Those TV shows transport me into a realm of imagination where I can suspend my rational side for a few moments and let go, but it is impermanent. I can no more brainwash myself into believing something I can not believe than those who do believe can let go of theirs.

Denzien,I'm so glad to hear"deep down "you want to believe.You're right,believeing in GOD makes no "sense". We cannot come to GOD with our senses.that's why it's called faith. Exercise your mustard grain size faith toward GOD,search for HIM with all your heart & you will find HIM. I was once an unbeliever,lost, & blind,but praise the LORD I saw the LIGHT! You can to!

[Taurus]

Originally Posted by CitySaint

You believe what you choose to believe. If there is a omniscient God out there, yes, he knows what you gravitate towards intellectually, but you are free to believe what you wish, you can choose to disbelieve gravity even though it is an evident fact. God obviously despite being all powerful does not infringe on the freedom of your own intellect.

Here's another way to think of it.

Can Yahweh be wrong? Is it even possible in any sense of the word? If yes, he's not really omniscient, just really old and really smart. If no, then freewill is an illusion, the very nature of reality enforces us to do precisely what he foresaw us doing the moment he created the universe, we can do nothing else, ever. We're drivers in a slot-car race. Sure, we might turn the wheel to follow the course, but in reality, there's simply no alternative.

[DaveXA]

Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum

So you, DaveXA, can choose right now at this very moment to truly believe with all your heart that God doesn't exist? You have that ability?

I could, it's certainly possible. I've done it before. I was wrong though.