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Old 02-23-2012, 09:50 AM   #85
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Interesting update to the OP:

Most docs in the group were obtained by California scientist (who happens to chair a committee on "scientific ethics") under false pretenses (hello, wire fraud) and the smoking gun memo is, in all likelhood, a fake.

Peter Gleick Confesses to Obtaining Heartland Documents Under False Pretenses - Megan McArdle - Business - The Atlantic
I would like to hear more facts about this. If the whistleblower lied in order to obtain the Heartland Institute documents, but the documents released are authentic Heartland documents, that's one thing. If the information is correct about Heartland Institute trying to develop K-12 curriculum to teach children misinformation along with the other misdeeds that are being alleged, how the documents came to be leaked is not very relevant to the discussion about what is contained in those documents. If the information in the documents is fake and its a hoax, that is a completely different scenario obviously.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:19 AM   #86
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I dont know enough about how the original Climategate emails got out to say how they compare...
Someone hacked into a CRU backup email server and stole a bunch of data.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:43 PM   #87
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I'm not sure if climate change is natural or man made. However, I do not think man has tracked weather long enough over the history of planet Earth to argue one way or the other. The Earth formed approximately 4 billion years ago. How many extinction level events have occurred since Earth started spinning? That makes a lot of observations in nature highly questionable. Also, over those 4 billion years man has only tracked weather patterns for 300 years at most. A drop in the bucket comparison. Like I said it would be hard to state one way or the other.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:06 PM   #88
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I'm not sure if climate change is natural or man made. However, I do not think man has tracked weather long enough over the history of planet Earth to argue one way or the other. The Earth formed approximately 4 billion years ago. How many extinction level events have occurred since Earth started spinning? That makes a lot of observations in nature highly questionable. Also, over those 4 billion years man has only tracked weather patterns for 300 years at most. A drop in the bucket comparison. Like I said it would be hard to state one way or the other.
While I'm no expert, your comments illustrate why experts' opinions carry more weight, because there are many ways to ascertain weather conditions over millions of years. Whether we have written records of weather for a couple hundred years is irrelevant, because the unwritten evidence reveals the weather.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:57 PM   #89
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I'm not sure if climate change is natural or man made. However, I do not think man has tracked weather long enough over the history of planet Earth to argue one way or the other. The Earth formed approximately 4 billion years ago. How many extinction level events have occurred since Earth started spinning? That makes a lot of observations in nature highly questionable. Also, over those 4 billion years man has only tracked weather patterns for 300 years at most. A drop in the bucket comparison. Like I said it would be hard to state one way or the other.
Weather patterns that old are irrelevant, anyway.

What's relevant is weather patterns from when the continents assumed their current positions, thus setting up the ocean currents that drive worldwide climate. Climate data from the supercontinent of Gondwanaland is useless.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:32 PM   #90
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Weather patterns that old are irrelevant, anyway.

What's relevant is weather patterns from when the continents assumed their current positions, thus setting up the ocean currents that drive worldwide climate. Climate data from the supercontinent of Gondwanaland is useless.
No, history is not useless... I guess thats why humans are doomed to repeat it so often. How do you know that nature isnt on some recurrent weather pattern? Like El Nino or El Nina. Thats not irrelevant.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:36 PM   #91
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his whole point is that recurrent weather patterns such as el nino and la nina are setup by ocean currents. ocean currents are determined by the continental shelves, among many other things. since there was only on continent way back when the ocean currents were drastically different.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:38 PM   #92
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While I'm no expert, your comments illustrate why experts' opinions carry more weight, because there are many ways to ascertain weather conditions over millions of years. Whether we have written records of weather for a couple hundred years is irrelevant, because the unwritten evidence reveals the weather.
Yes, I know that there are many ways to ascertain that. How accurate is it though? There has been at least 1 extinction level event in the history of Earth, that we know of, that killed off most all living things. Looking at tree rings and ocean sediment, currents and water levels would change with an event like that. A lot of the Earths living conditions would. I point to the "reliability" of the unwritten evidence due to E.L.E's.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:42 PM   #93
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How accurate is it though?
Considering that it's based on observational data, a lot more accurate than your guesses and speculations.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:43 PM   #94
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his whole point is that recurrent weather patterns such as el nino and la nina are setup by ocean currents. ocean currents are determined by the continental shelves, among many other things. since there was only on continent way back when the ocean currents were drastically different.
Yes, I understand that. How do we know that the worlds current weather wasnt or isnt a repeating weather pattern? For example: what if during the Jurassic period of the dinosaurs this was the weather pattern (our current weather), but due to the E.L.E this information isnt attainable. Observations in natures weather patterns would be skewed by such a catastrophic event.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:44 PM   #95
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because the continents have changed!
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:46 PM   #96
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Considering that it's based on observational data, a lot more accurate than your guesses and speculations.
What? Ive said that I think our observational data would be limited due to man's limited records of the Earths history and that past E.L.E's could distort some of mans natural observation data.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:49 PM   #97
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don't bother replying. you've made it clear that you trust your own speculations over the the scientific method. there's no point in debating with you. you're the only person on my ignore list now.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:50 PM   #98
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