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Old 01-11-2017, 10:25 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint_cajun78 View Post
Only 36% of military members approve of the job he's done for the past 8 years. Very telling when you take a look at where our military has gone over the last 8 years. And having been in the military myself for the past 20 years I can totally agree with this percentage above.

edit with link to military times
The Obama era is over. Here's how the military rates his legacy
My nephew was on deployment on the Eisenhower during the election. He said when they realized Trump won the election, the whole ship went nuts with excitement...
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:06 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by saint_cajun78 View Post
Wow! I cannot believe you actually compared the wars in Vietnam and Korea to the current situation we are in. this is not a conventional war in the sense that we fought against those two other nations we are fighting a new type of enemy that does not follow the rules of engagement. Your complete and utter disregard to this fact shows me that you do not know the true facts of how we have come to this point. truth of the matter is that Obama prematurely took us out of Iraq before the job was completed thus thrusting us backwards and now we are trying to help the Iraqi military take back mosul. if we would have stayed and finished the job we would not be backtracking with less troops I might add. what a backhanded reply, you're going to sit there and try to put the blame on the military not getting the job done you my friend are not a patriot. if our troops wouldn't have been pulled out early as Obama tried so hard to do to make good on his promise, even though the job was not done and he knew this but instead he sucked up his pride and went through with it knowing he was screwing with the progress made. and as a result ISIS grew stronger in both Their military capabilities and the land that they controlled.
Seriously, you are the type of person I would hate to have come home and want a career in law enforcement.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:24 AM   #31
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:53 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint_cajun78 View Post
Please don't lecture me on what our military has done and is currently doing. I'm sitting in the middle east right now as I type this while you're home safe and sound. Your welcome.
And we have had our hands tied for years with this current administration when it comes to carrying out the most effective military strategies we are capable of carrying out. Plinking out roads and bridges are hardly the limitations of our arsenal. Meanwhile women and children are being killed while we only fly Air tasking ordered missions. Like it or not in order to win against these idiots you need to fight fire with fire..more boots on the ground to knock these radical extremists into the world beyond. Don't believe everything you hear and see on CNN...
Hey man I respect your sentiment and your service. We know you're good at what you do. We know our military could take over the world if we wanted to. But what you do costs trillions of dollars. If letting you show the "limitations of our arsenal" was free, and wouldn't get us bogged down into further conflicts like every single other time we go to the middle east, I'm sure Joe Q Taxpayer would be happy to let you do it.

I design airports. You know, the ones our president-elect called "third-world." They'd be a lot nicer if we were allowed to do whatever we want and hire more help, but turns out taxpayers don't like to pay for things. C'est la vie
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIPPY View Post
My nephew was on deployment on the Eisenhower during the election. He said when they realized Trump won the election, the whole ship went nuts with excitement...
Like I said earlier.......
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:43 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by retrobanana View Post
Military members overwhelmingly vote conservative so not like this is news or surprising or telling of anything.

Also not sure why I'm supposed to care. Is the average military member more informed than myself on national issues? Foreign policy? Not likely. There is nothing from an intellectual standpoint that makes their vote worth any more than mine or Meryl Streep or any other libbie thats bleeding from their vaginas.
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Originally Posted by Devildog View Post
Yes, military members do skew conservative. If they're anything like the units I was in while I was in the Marine Corps, you don't talk about it and no one gives a **** who the president is. People in the military, I myself having been one, while smarter than previous generations of military personnel, are not very educated on matters of national security or defense as a whole.
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Originally Posted by Poison View Post
Out of curiosity, are there any statistics available concerning the composition of the military in terms of age, gender, ethnicity and income? My completely uninformed assumption is that there would be a large number of lower to middle income white males - i.e. the group with whom Obama has consistently had the lowest approval ratings.
Nixon ended the draft in 1973, when I turned 14. Ford followed up by getting rid of the registration system in 1975. There were many good reasons to move to an all-volunteer army, including costs, technical competence, relieving the social turmoil caused by the draft, signaling our serious intention to get out and stay out of Vietnam, and--most importantly of all--making sure that I, PayOrPlay, wouldn't have to serve. Heck, I never even had to register, since I fell into the brief window of boys who hit 18 before Carter restored registration in 1980, in an attempt to send a signal to the Russkies about Afghanistan.

I am thoroughly thankful for the highly competent and essential services performed by our professional military, serving in low-paid positions under enormous stress.

But there was one very solid argument against a professional army, then and now. A professional army creates a professional military class with its own mindsets and preferences, and a willingness to deploy force, which are not necessarily reflective of the nation as a whole. We justly celebrate the "Greatest Generation" that won WW2, and one of the key reasons is that they were a cross-section of the whole country. (Or at least, we imagined that they were, and tried not to think too hard about the racial discrimination that was still endemic.) It became a basic component of our national mythology, and not just so it could make its way into hundreds of war movies with their melting-pot casts fighting bravely. At least in theory, a citizen army can be used only when the citizenry is willing, and is a pressure against reckless foreign entanglements.

So now, more than 40 years later, we have the many benefits of a professional army, including technical competence that probably couldn't be managed with involuntary, short-term recruits. But we also have reaped the concomitant costs. It's much easier for politicians to use, and overuse, a volunteer military. And, very naturally, our military becomes its own culture, with its own viewpoints.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:50 PM   #35
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I have a lot of friends who are were in the Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force.

One Marine friend, who was deployed in the sandbox (I forget which one), stated, regardless of the reasons for going to War with Iraq and Afghanistan, they needed a war, because their military tactics were outdated. So, this was helpful to the military.

Ever since that day (it was actually about a week or so after Katrina hit.. he wanted to go help with the "looter problem"), I've had the view point that most soldiers see the value in sending troops into conflict zones. They will justify that deployment, regardless if the public does. And that's ok, you want your soldiers to be happy to follow orders. So, some of these stats don't shock me at all. I also don't care much about them.

Also, it seems like a good number think we need more Troops, more drones, etc. That is for one simple reason. Individual soldier safety. There is safety in numbers (and being able to crush the opposition) and there is safety in using UAV's.

So, they essentially want us at war or keep the fight "out there", with all the troops we can muster, and all the toys to keep them safe, but complete the mission.

None of that is shocking. And, since they believe Trump would support all those things, or at the least, wants to give them "more" (more what is the question), of course they'd support them. If a candidate had a part of their platform that all Teachers deserve higher pay, they'd win the full support of teachers.

So, Soldiers are wired a certain way to perform a difficult task our government/public asks them to do. However, they're not always wired the same as the general public. So, it's important to realize where they are coming from and why before you take anything statistically derived from that group seriously.

Interestingly enough, so many support UAV's, yet don't seem to give Obama the credit for really pushing those.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:52 PM   #36
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Carter restored registration in 1980, in an attempt to send a signal to the Russkies about Afghanistan.
I had no idea there'd been a 5 year gap. I'm not sure if it's still true, or whether women have to register now, but I know I couldn't apply to some colleges or apply for aid or a lot of scholarships unless they could verify that I'd registered with the selective service.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:55 PM   #37
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The military isn't fond of a Democrat President. In other news, water is wet and dogs have a great sense of smell.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint_Ward View Post
Interestingly enough, so many support UAV's, yet don't seem to give Obama the credit for really pushing those.
Well of course they don't, that would be an inconvenient thought process. Kind of the opposite of confirmation bias.

I believe it was on the first page of this thread somebody posted part of a study that showed military members' notions on the issues that jibed well with Obama-era policies, but there's a disconnect - because he's not "their guy" it doesn't really matter what he has or hasn't done. Because the Republicans have flags waving everywhere and bald eagle lapel pins and "patriotism" dammit.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:18 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Galbreath34 View Post
I think it did dip that low back in 2014. If you want a true poll for when he comes out, why not look to America instead of Russia?

The Obama era is over. Here's how the military rates his legacy

Setting "more troop/more jobs" aside... The number two source of opposition is not staying bogged down in Iraq. Are you saying you're with that group? The number one source? Not going to war with China.

So yeah, I'm ok with people that want us to stay in Iraq and bomb China being miffed.
Not to mention the USA has the most bloated and costly military of any country in the world and these people are criticizing Obama for not increasing the size of the military. Give me a break.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:52 PM   #40
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while it may be true that Bush's administration had a plan to withdraw by 2011 fact of the matter is Obama took over before that deadline and still decided to push for withdrawal from Iraq when he knew we shouldn't have. he should have done the right thing and reassess the situation and realized that it was not opportune to leave at that time instead he went ahead and withdrew the troops prematurely those are the facts.
Saint by the Bay posted about the Status of Forces agreement. Iraq wanted us out, so they wouldn't sign it to protect our troops, so any act committed by our troops could've been punished under Iraqi laws. Our troops would've been far more hamstrung than the strings that you complain about today. You could be in an Iraqi jail for doing your job. Would you have wanted to continue to serve in Iraq without a SoF? What percentage of troops would want that? What kind of political mess would that have created?

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Actually, Obama took a lot of heat from the left, myself included, for not keeping his promises to GT*O of both wars. He actually did amp up another surge, in fact, and seemed to be a total neo-con. I'm wondering how you forget all of this. Forget about more than doubling the drone program, including targeting US citizens. The worst part of his legacy is that he kept us further entangled.
I think Obama said multiple times during his campaign that Afghanistan is where we should be fighting. Many misinterpreted him and thought he was going to end both immediately. the drone program is about the only way to attack ISIS without troops on the ground. What would you do, if not the drone program?

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He also attempted to negotiate to leave 10,000 in Iraq but the Iraqi government declined and wanted to stick to the agreement they signed with Bush.

In U.S. Exit From Iraq, Failed Efforts and Challenges - The New York Times
Thanks for the post.
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Old 01-11-2017, 02:01 PM   #41
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As someone who was alive when Vietnam was going on I find your assertion that this war is unlike Vietnam in that the enemy doesn't follow the rules of engagement to be fascinating.
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Old 01-11-2017, 02:06 PM   #42
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What would you do, if not the drone program?
It's not the drones as tech, but the way they are used and the use of them on US Citizens being pretty much directly unconstitutional but done anyway. You can look up the old threads on it where the subject was beat to death. Using drones to get targets in a contested/occupied city like Raqqa or in compounds or cave complexes in Afghanistan are ok and valid military targets in my book. The problem is taking out an entire family at a wedding because you have a guy saying things at a university or hitting people in a van on the way to work in a city and taking out other collateral targets is the kind of thing I have problems with and that Obama has expanded on over Bush's start. Basically the actual legal justifications put out by the administration amount to the claim that any spot on the planet is now a war zone as long as someone we want to hit is there, and the bar for taking out innocents as collateral is exceptionally low. Also more specific things like allowing approval of kills at very low levels of authority if the target has been assigned or discussed at least once at higher levels. So a flunky gets to decide with full authority and protection that it's ok to go after a target in the middle of a crowd, etc.

I have no problem with the core tech and core battlefield use. I just have problems with the policy and actual use in very civilian settings, and especially with targeting and executing American citizens without trial or due process.
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