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Old 01-11-2017, 02:13 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint_Ward View Post
I have a lot of friends who are were in the Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force.

One Marine friend, who was deployed in the sandbox (I forget which one), stated, regardless of the reasons for going to War with Iraq and Afghanistan, they needed a war, because their military tactics were outdated. So, this was helpful to the military.

Ever since that day (it was actually about a week or so after Katrina hit.. he wanted to go help with the "looter problem"), I've had the view point that most soldiers see the value in sending troops into conflict zones. They will justify that deployment, regardless if the public does. And that's ok, you want your soldiers to be happy to follow orders. So, some of these stats don't shock me at all. I also don't care much about them.

Also, it seems like a good number think we need more Troops, more drones, etc. That is for one simple reason. Individual soldier safety. There is safety in numbers (and being able to crush the opposition) and there is safety in using UAV's.

So, they essentially want us at war or keep the fight "out there", with all the troops we can muster, and all the toys to keep them safe, but complete the mission.

None of that is shocking. And, since they believe Trump would support all those things, or at the least, wants to give them "more" (more what is the question), of course they'd support them. If a candidate had a part of their platform that all Teachers deserve higher pay, they'd win the full support of teachers.

So, Soldiers are wired a certain way to perform a difficult task our government/public asks them to do. However, they're not always wired the same as the general public. So, it's important to realize where they are coming from and why before you take anything statistically derived from that group seriously.

Interestingly enough, so many support UAV's, yet don't seem to give Obama the credit for really pushing those.
Great post.
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Old 01-11-2017, 02:36 PM   #44
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Still trying to wrap my head around how the war in vietnam was conventional and different from the recent campaigns in the ME.

How do you...???? Explain.
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:03 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAhotsauce View Post
Still trying to wrap my head around how the war in vietnam was conventional and different from the recent campaigns in the ME.

How do you...???? Explain.
My understanding of Vietnam is that it was the first war where the enemy did not follow traditional rules of engagement and that is why we got our butts handed to us on a daily basis. But I'm too young, my only understanding is based in reading and documentaries, etc.
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:30 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint_cajun78 View Post
Wow! I cannot believe you actually compared the wars in Vietnam and Korea to the current situation we are in. this is not a conventional war in the sense that we fought against those two other nations we are fighting a new type of enemy that does not follow the rules of engagement. Your complete and utter disregard to this fact shows me that you do not know the true facts of how we have come to this point.
the bolded could be a tl;dr for the Vietnam War
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:50 PM   #47
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mais.. we won the revolutionary war because we did not follow the rules of engagement...
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:54 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retrobanana View Post
My understanding of Vietnam is that it was the first war where the enemy did not follow traditional rules of engagement and that is why we got our butts handed to us on a daily basis. But I'm too young, my only understanding is based in reading and documentaries, etc.
Candidates for the "first guerrilla war" have been proposed going back at least as far as Sun Tzu (6th century BC) and very notably including some of Washington's tactics during the American Revolution. And yes, Vietnam is a paradigmatic example of effective use of inferior, but highly committed, forces against a massively superior occupying force.

History of guerrilla warfare
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:09 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcirdor View Post
mais.. we won the revolutionary war because we did not follow the rules of engagement...
That's what Mel Gibson would have you believe....

(I'm joking, btw).
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:32 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint_cajun78 View Post
I stand corrected. ..36% is still very telling. When more than half the military want you gone then that paints a pretty clear picture of what kind of CINC you have been.
I think this section from the "article" is pretty telling about the kind of people who volunteer for military service.
Quote:
Their complaints include the presidentís decision to decrease military personnel (71 percent think it should be higher), his moves to withdraw combat troops from Iraq (59 percent say it made America less safe) and his lack of focus on the biggest dangers facing America (64 percent say China represents a significant threat to the U.S.)
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Originally Posted by saint_cajun78 View Post
I'm sitting in the middle east right now as I type this while you're home safe and sound. Your welcome.
Your presence in your current location is EXACTLY why my life may be in danger one day from the very threats you think you're eliminating.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:42 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint_cajun78 View Post
Wow! I cannot believe you actually compared the wars in Vietnam and Korea to the current situation we are in. this is not a conventional war in the sense that we fought against those two other nations we are fighting a new type of enemy that does not follow the rules of engagement. Your complete and utter disregard to this fact shows me that you do not know the true facts of how we have come to this point. truth of the matter is that Obama prematurely took us out of Iraq before the job was completed thus thrusting us backwards and now we are trying to help the Iraqi military take back mosul. if we would have stayed and finished the job we would not be backtracking with less troops I might add. what a backhanded reply, you're going to sit there and try to put the blame on the military not getting the job done you my friend are not a patriot. if our troops wouldn't have been pulled out early as Obama tried so hard to do to make good on his promise, even though the job was not done and he knew this but instead he sucked up his pride and went through with it knowing he was screwing with the progress made. and as a result ISIS grew stronger in both Their military capabilities and the land that they controlled.
LOL at you for thinking Koreans and Vietnamese followed the rules of engagement. Tet Offensive ring a bell?
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:50 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbreath34 View Post
It's not the drones as tech, but the way they are used and the use of them on US Citizens being pretty much directly unconstitutional but done anyway. You can look up the old threads on it where the subject was beat to death. Using drones to get targets in a contested/occupied city like Raqqa or in compounds or cave complexes in Afghanistan are ok and valid military targets in my book. The problem is taking out an entire family at a wedding because you have a guy saying things at a university or hitting people in a van on the way to work in a city and taking out other collateral targets is the kind of thing I have problems with and that Obama has expanded on over Bush's start. Basically the actual legal justifications put out by the administration amount to the claim that any spot on the planet is now a war zone as long as someone we want to hit is there, and the bar for taking out innocents as collateral is exceptionally low. Also more specific things like allowing approval of kills at very low levels of authority if the target has been assigned or discussed at least once at higher levels. So a flunky gets to decide with full authority and protection that it's ok to go after a target in the middle of a crowd, etc.

I have no problem with the core tech and core battlefield use. I just have problems with the policy and actual use in very civilian settings, and especially with targeting and executing American citizens without trial or due process.
This is my problem with the drone strikes. I understand it's about keeping our soldiers safe. Great. And it's effective. 8 combat deaths in Afghanistan since 2014. The problem is I think we lose the justification of "keeping people safe" when we are indiscriminately bombing buildings and crowds of people that may be chock full of civilians. We are essentially saying we believe the life of the average American soldier is more important than the life of the average Afghan civilian. I don't like that.
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:20 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint_cajun78 View Post
Wow! I cannot believe you actually compared the wars in Vietnam and Korea to the current situation we are in. this is not a conventional war in the sense that we fought against those two other nations we are fighting a new type of enemy that does not follow the rules of engagement. Your complete and utter disregard to this fact shows me that you do not know the true facts of how we have come to this point. truth of the matter is that Obama prematurely took us out of Iraq before the job was completed thus thrusting us backwards and now we are trying to help the Iraqi military take back mosul. if we would have stayed and finished the job we would not be backtracking with less troops I might add. what a backhanded reply, you're going to sit there and try to put the blame on the military not getting the job done you my friend are not a patriot. if our troops wouldn't have been pulled out early as Obama tried so hard to do to make good on his promise, even though the job was not done and he knew this but instead he sucked up his pride and went through with it knowing he was screwing with the progress made. and as a result ISIS grew stronger in both Their military capabilities and the land that they controlled.
You do understand the Viet Chong was/is different from the NVA.
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