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Old 03-15-2012, 11:33 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by wamland View Post
Not according to the candidates.

Self Deportation is satire and not one of the candidates gets it. This political theater is outstanding.

Yeah, sure its a satire. But is it really asking much?
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:11 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by saintfan-n-alex View Post
IMO we should set a date in the near future where immagration laws apply to incomming immagrants and concentrate on deportation of those who break laws, if you are legally here and break sever enough laws you are still deported after a jail sentance or just deported.

so say 4-1-2012 - if you are discovered to be here illegaly then you must be deported despite your work status - if you are here illegally prior to 4-1-12 you can stay if you are not in violation of any laws (in jail for felony etc) - if you came here after 4-1-12 and are discovered and state you lived here prior to 4-1, and another immagant be they legalor not states you were living with them and its found out you were not - then you both go back.


this will require id card of some sort - as we all have or should have, and its not amnesty but to retro-actively deport hard working yet illegal immagrants that are here due to america's failure to enforce laws is not fair.

this will allow current undocumented immagrants to gain picture ids, tax ids without fear of deportation and sends a signal to anyone considering immagrating here illegally that post 4-1-12 the dont ask dont tell way of doing things has ended and legal immagration will be the accepted way of doing things moving forward.

also this ends the lower pay due to immagration status and puts more of a punishment on employers that do so.



Wait?
I should be required to carry an ID card around with me everywhere I go?
Or only if I look Hispanic?


I'm not exactly following the rest. Are you saying that we should set a date to start enforcing immigration laws, but before then any illegals should be allowed to file and gain the paperwork, IDs, and anything else they need to remain here legally without leaving the country and filing for visas first? Amnesty basically?

If so, then I agree with that 100%. Any policy that believes we should be trying to deport, self-deportation or not, millions of hardworking individuals is set up to fail.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:17 PM   #31
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by El Caliente View Post
Everyone wants the glue, but nobody wants to see how its made.

I think the amount of value we lose if we stop allowing workers to hire illegal immigrants at lower wages is minimal.
I think we need to make it easier, not harder, for people to legally come into this country.
I think trying to deport, by any method, millions of hard working people whose only crime is not having a piece of paper is barbaric, self-defeating, and a waste of time and money.
I think we need to allow a legal amnesty period for illegals to become legal workers in our country without having to leave the country and with no questions asked. As long as they continue to follow the rest of our laws, they can remain and even begin the road to citizenship if they want too.

First I would enact an amnesty program.
Second I would start coming down hard on any business and employers who hire illegal immigrants or pay their workers 'under the table'. Specially ones paying wages lower because of those illegals.
Third, I would make it easier and more streamlined to get work visas and much easier to work on becoming a citizen.

After all of that is in place, I would then come down hard on any remaining illegals.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:26 PM   #33
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Why is this being made more complicated than it has to be? The primary reason for individuals to be in this country illegally is employment. So if you want to curtail illegal immigration simply start hammering employers who hire illegally. There is already a database set up that allows you to verify the validity of a SS# and in lieu of citizenship there is other documentation required in order to be legally employed as a non-citizen so there is no excuse on the employers end.

I am not saying that this would completely end illegal immigration, short of killing every human being in the world who is not already a citizen that will never happen... but I do not see why we continue to try and eliminate symptoms instead of going straight to the root cause.

Of course there is also some issues with the border as a result of the drug trade, adopting a reasonable drug policy with the legalization/decriminalization of many substances in line with the model some European countries have adopted would greatly reduce the revenue stream that is motivating this behavior.... once again addressing the root cause and not simply treating the symptoms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic201 View Post
I think the amount of value we lose if we stop allowing workers to hire illegal immigrants at lower wages is minimal.
With the exception of the fruit farming industry I pretty much agree with you... I suspect this industry would shrink to less than half of its current presence in the US if they lost their migrant workforce... I buy mostly Chilean fruit anyway so it does not bother me.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic201 View Post
First I would enact an amnesty program.
Second I would start coming down hard on any business and employers who hire illegal immigrants or pay their workers 'under the table'. Specially ones paying wages lower because of those illegals.
Third, I would make it easier and more streamlined to get work visas and much easier to work on becoming a citizen.
I agree with all of this except the bolded part. I would come down on all of them. My old roommate used to manage construction sites, and he regularly worked with illegals. The illegals did great work and he was happy to have them... they also typically got paid as much and occasionally more /hr than their legal counterparts. Where the money was saved was in payroll taxes, liability insurance, disability payments, health coverage, overtime, etc... He actually regularly had members of the legal workforce working on his site under the table for the same reasons. They got to pocket a higher hourly wage and his company got to dodge numerous other expenses.


Oh and as for making it easier. I have long advocated allowing, easy to obtain, "work passes" for immigrant workers. They are legally documented, pay taxes, etc, and after 5 years of working, staying out of trouble, and paying taxes they can chose to become a citizen. During that 5 years though they are not eligible for any government services or their tax return... If they chose to become a citizen they gain access to their saved SS account but the rest of the taxes they paid would not be due back to them.

Oh and the common argument of anchor babies? Well if the parents are illegal but the child is US born then the child should certainly be a US citizen. Of course the parents should still be deported if they are not working within available legal methods of being in this country, and they should have the option of taking the child with them or giving them up for adoption.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:32 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic201 View Post
I think the amount of value we lose if we stop allowing workers to hire illegal immigrants at lower wages is minimal.
I think we need to make it easier, not harder, for people to legally come into this country.
I think trying to deport, by any method, millions of hard working people whose only crime is not having a piece of paper is barbaric, self-defeating, and a waste of time and money.
I think we need to allow a legal amnesty period for illegals to become legal workers in our country without having to leave the country and with no questions asked. As long as they continue to follow the rest of our laws, they can remain and even begin the road to citizenship if they want too.

First I would enact an amnesty program.
Second I would start coming down hard on any business and employers who hire illegal immigrants or pay their workers 'under the table'. Specially ones paying wages lower because of those illegals.
Third, I would make it easier and more streamlined to get work visas and much easier to work on becoming a citizen.

After all of that is in place, I would then come down hard on any remaining illegals.

Then why are you voting Democrat? The last President to grant amnesty to millions was Ronald Reagan.

I agree with you by the way. E-Verify however is not the only way to go. You can easily procure the SS # of a dead Puerto Rican if you know the right people.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:46 PM   #35
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Then why are you voting Democrat? The last President to grant amnesty to millions was Ronald Reagan.

I agree with you by the way. E-Verify however is not the only way to go. You can easily procure the SS # of a dead Puerto Rican if you know the right people.

Just because it was the last president to do so was Republican, doesn't make it likely that Republicans will be the next ones. Have you been listening to Republican rhetoric and plans regarding illegal immigration? Not one of them have come close to proposing any sort of real amnesty plan. Any that do are labeled RINO's and drummed out of the party.

I don't think I can vote Republican again until they get over their backwards Social stances and remove religion as their basis of governing.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:58 PM   #36
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again? You voted for one before?
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:04 PM   #37
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again? You voted for one before?
Sigh.
**** off.

The moment I think we're starting to have a good back and forth on a topic, you start dragging the bottom of your barrel of responses.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:07 PM   #38
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Sorry, if I upset you, that wasnt my goal. I was just surprised to see that you have voted for a Republican before. I am sincerely sorry, for asking. I just wondered when you had voted republican before.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:19 PM   #39
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Sorry, if I upset you, that wasnt my goal. I was just surprised to see that you have voted for a Republican before. I am sorry, for asking.
I'm sorry if I misread your response.
I've had several examples of similar responses from other of our more estimated (sarcasm) conservative members implying that I'm the most liberalist of liberals who have ever liberaled.

I grew up in Louisiana, an extremely right of center state. My family are all staunch Republicans except for an oddball Aunt, a cousin and more and more often my mother. My dad, uncles, brothers, and rest of my family are typical fox news watching only, listens to Rush all day, Beck when he was still on the air, and follows only the most right leaning websites online. Any Republican cliche you can come up with, they enact and follow gladly. Any cliche you can think about Democrats or Liberals they believe.

So yes, I've voted Republican.
In fact, I vote Republican quite often on a local level because they tend to dissociate with the national narrative quite often.

I even voted for President Bush in 2004, mostly because of my disdain for Kerry.

However as I've grown older, I've always like to think I've become wiser in many of my stances; none more then my social standings. I'm not overly Religious, though I believe and try to follow the teaching of Christ. I don't think we should be legislating Christian morality in our country though and I hate how Evangelical Christians have been driving the narrative. I think gay Americans should be allowed to marry if they so wish. Period. I think setting up road blocks for the poor to vote is wrong. Period. I believe women are in charge of their own body and the decisions made in regards to it. While I don't support abortion and I hope a woman as access to every available means to avoid the need, I think it should be perfectly legal if they choose it.

I don't think racial discrimination is a thing of the past, I think we still need laws protecting it from happening.


There are things I believe that would fall into the conservative category. But I don't believe Republicans currently enshrine any of those beliefs.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:29 PM   #40
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Thanks. And for the record, I don't think your a bad guy.
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:13 PM   #41
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Wait?
I should be required to carry an ID card around with me everywhere I go?
Or only if I look Hispanic?


I'm not exactly following the rest. Are you saying that we should set a date to start enforcing immigration laws, but before then any illegals should be allowed to file and gain the paperwork, IDs, and anything else they need to remain here legally without leaving the country and filing for visas first? Amnesty basically?

If so, then I agree with that 100%. Any policy that believes we should be trying to deport, self-deportation or not, millions of hardworking individuals is set up to fail.
everyone should have an id to prove who they are when needed - jogging around the block, going to lake no - but going to the lake and drinking , voting, driving etc


yes as you said basically amnesty, but felony convictions could lead to deportation depending on the felony or repeat offenses.

but no i wouldnt deport current folks just because they are undocumented\illegal - kind of an ex post facto approach - if an illegal immagrant has established a life here and was able to do so due the the unenforced immagration laws then to come back and enforce the law and remove them is not fair.

enforcement of the law moving forward cant\shouldnt be dismissed because of refusal to do so in the past. - the country has already absorbed any costs as well as gained benefits from current undocumented immigrants the best solution for the future is to enforce the law and control immagration and to allow current immigrants to become documneted and put on the same playing feild as everyone else - thus remnoving the "work americans wont do" and pay of a lower wage due to their fears. - its exploitive
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:28 PM   #42
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everyone should have an id to prove who they are when needed - jogging around the block, going to lake no - but going to the lake and drinking , voting, driving etc


yes as you said basically amnesty, but felony convictions could lead to deportation depending on the felony or repeat offenses.

but no i wouldnt deport current folks just because they are undocumented\illegal - kind of an ex post facto approach - if an illegal immagrant has established a life here and was able to do so due the the unenforced immagration laws then to come back and enforce the law and remove them is not fair.

enforcement of the law moving forward cant\shouldnt be dismissed because of refusal to do so in the past. - the country has already absorbed any costs as well as gained benefits from current undocumented immigrants the best solution for the future is to enforce the law and control immagration and to allow current immigrants to become documneted and put on the same playing feild as everyone else - thus remnoving the "work americans wont do" and pay of a lower wage due to their fears. - its exploitive


I agree with everything except the need for Americans to carry ID around with them at all times. Driving? Yes. Walking around the block? **** no.
Legally, all I need to do is give the police my name if they feel the need to question and that's only in certain states and only if detained. A police officer has no right to simply get everyone's name and information from people they see walking down the street for no reason.

I see no reason why I need to have ID on me at all times.
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