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Old 01-11-2017, 08:09 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VDK View Post
Read between the lines of what the former acting director of the CIA is saying.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/11/politi...rump-amanpour/
I think some honestly believe that our intelligence chiefs run into the Oval Office as intelligence comes in and has no credibility.

They dont. They cant.

Therefore, it was pretty easy to gather that if briefed upon the subject, thier early assessment is that there is something there and requires additional intelligence gathering.

Is it rock solid? No. Not yet. But believe they will now get to the bottom of it.

The fact that Trump and Co are attempting to down play this as Fake is somewhat concerning.

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Old 01-11-2017, 09:00 PM   #212
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Anderson Cooper just destroyed Kellyanne Conway over their response to this story.

Trump's fanatics will never see it though.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:10 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim View Post
So, I put this under information that should have made people wary of voting him. I do think it's "newsworthy", but it's still just smoke. For whatever reason, American voters were comfortable voting for a man that was not well vetted. It's their choice.

The actual evidence is still raw intelligence, which tends to be a big mish mash of varying levels of credibility.
Trump's skeptics will always think something fishy is going on; Trump's fans will always think it's fake news or a political witch hunt. If the latter is the REAL truth, Trump could, himself, put this matter to bed easily and quickly - because, after all, as we've seen from Pussygate, none of his fans care about golden shower allegations anyway.

Do they care about financial conflicts? Let's find out, Mr. Trump. Disclose your tax returns; disclose your financial documents. If, as you say, there's "nothing to learn," why hide behind the excuse of an audit?

Unless there is something to hide.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:17 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by not2rich View Post

Do they care about financial conflicts? Let's find out, Mr. Trump. Disclose your tax returns; disclose your financial documents. If, as you say, there's "nothing to learn," why hide behind the excuse of an audit?

Unless there is something to hide.
I agree. It's also fishy he keeps saying his lawyers "Highly recommend him to NOT show them".
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:20 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim View Post
For whatever reason, American voters were comfortable voting for a man that was not well vetted. It's their choice.
Yeah that's why anything brought up -- even if 100% verified, like half the stuff he has already done -- is not going to matter in the least. His supporters don't care. Not one bit. Mocking the disabled? Whatever. Huge misogynist? Yawn. Shady ties with our longest running adversary (who, don't forget, until ~2 years ago the conservatives didn't like, either)? It's a brand new day! He admitted it in the primaries -- he could shoot someone in the face and it wouldn't even matter. If he lies about this or that, or runs up the debt incredibly (like every estimate of his plans have predicted so far), or makes massive personal profit while America loses on the world stage, what does it matter? At least a liberal isn't President anymore and we can all insult each other and forget empathy for at least 4 years -- it's all good.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:24 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VDK View Post
Read between the lines of what the former acting director of the CIA is saying.

Ex-CIA leader: 'Surprised' unverified intel given to Trump - CNNPolitics.com
This is the thing that sparked my initial response. I can come up with all sorts of reasons Democrat operatives or some random liberal inside an agency might leak this stuff to the press. Political motivation, spoil sport butt hurt, spiteful sabotage of a hated rival, all kinds of things come into play.

What I can't come up with is why the agencies would officially report on this stuff to Trump and Obama, putting everything in writing and official channels, and no one denies that this was done. I can't find a motivation for professional civil service agencies that span administrations willfully acting on dubious information to attack and anger the incoming administration. I see no plausible motive.

When I started this thread there was no Buzz Feed dump. I think Jim has been more on top of the fact that everyone is accepting that as the actual initial source. I still haven't even looked at it, but scoffed at some of the extreme stuff in it when it entered the thread. I was listening to the presser and working and posting here (and did hear them on the tube on CNN question the validity of the entire document in a way they haven't on the web in text). Still, the fairer characterization is that every major outlet does accept it as the source document, but didn't dump publish it because they felt clearly that a lot of the separate parts were questionable. The sources though were equally clear that the synopsis didn't endorse all of the document, but did feel that parts of it were corroborated and worth further investigation.

The BBC had the most detailed take on why the reporter there feels there's substance worthy of the report and investigation based on other sources and corroboration. It's also pretty fair on why there are reasonable doubts on some of the claims.

Trump 'compromising' claims: How and why did we get here? - BBC News

Quote:
I understand the CIA believes it is credible that the Kremlin has such kompromat - or compromising material - on the next US commander in chief. At the same time a joint taskforce, which includes the CIA and the FBI, has been investigating allegations that the Russians may have sent money to Mr Trump's organisation or his election campaign.
It's significant that these agencies believe there are credible claims worth investigating -- we're not talking about just "Yeah, we check everything", we're talking about "This is big enough we need to commit it to writing and present it at the highest levels version of worth investigating." That's concerning.

Quote:
And the former MI6 agent is not the only source for the claim about Russian kompromat on the president-elect. Back in August, a retired spy told me he had been informed of its existence by "the head of an East European intelligence agency".

Later, I used an intermediary to pass some questions to active duty CIA officers dealing with the case file - they would not speak to me directly. I got a message back that there was "more than one tape", "audio and video", on "more than one date", in "more than one place" - in the Ritz-Carlton in Moscow and also in St Petersburg - and that the material was "of a sexual nature".
Quote:
On 15 October, the US secret intelligence court issued a warrant to investigate two Russian banks. This news was given to me by several sources and corroborated by someone I will identify only as a senior member of the US intelligence community. He would never volunteer anything - giving up classified information would be illegal - but he would confirm or deny what I had heard from other sources.

"I'm going to write a story that says…" I would say. "I don't have a problem with that," he would reply, if my information was accurate. He confirmed the sequence of events below.

Last April, the CIA director was shown intelligence that worried him. It was - allegedly - a tape recording of a conversation about money from the Kremlin going into the US presidential campaign.

It was passed to the US by an intelligence agency of one of the Baltic States. The CIA cannot act domestically against American citizens so a joint counter-intelligence taskforce was created.
I still don't think having problems with our public interpretation of the leaked documents meaningfully impacts the importance of the way or top intelligence agencies have deemed the seriousness and credibility of the allegations. I also don't think they'd act to report on it if it were truly linked to "hey we got this paper from this guy" without a lot of other things pointing the same way and being pursued. You can shrug it all off if you want, but in doing that you basically have to say that our intelligence agencies are huge liberals and willing to shoot themselves and their credibility and working relationship with a new Commander in Chief and further damage their public image just because they hate Trump. By the by, Trump before all of this was promising to increase spying and clandestine ops on ISIS and other targets and to promote more waterboarding and all the things the spooks generally love. If anything you'd expect them to be salivating at serving Trump. That they have serious doubts and issues to investigate to me speaks volumes. If you shrug it off you think they're basically liberal to the core, which is a new twist.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:15 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Saint_Ward View Post
Russia said it's ok? Well, no ****. Guess we don't have a problem.

Now, from what I read last night (not sure if anything has changed), it's allegations. There is a report that buzzfeed posts, but most media admonished them for not really verifying it, so they won't touch it, other than to say it's out there.

This is definite smoke, but not sure we can call it a fire yet.

If true, he really might get impeached his first year. This is insane.
And if it's false, will this anonymous source be held accountable? Of course not. They will just move on to the next fake news story. Disgusting liberal media.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:28 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saintsfan26 View Post
And if it's false, will this anonymous source be held accountable? Of course not. They will just move on to the next fake news story. Disgusting liberal media.
What disgusting liberal media outlet brought us pizzagate? Fake new goes both ways.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:19 AM   #219
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Quote:
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So, I feel a responsibility to weigh in about this because I initially commented on the story and brought it up in another thread and started one of the two threads that created this merge. First, let's be clear on what CNN actually said about how the information was obtained. This is verbatim from Bernstein (emphasis mine):



For starters, this is an important point because while the information gathering started from the direction of political opponents of Trump it is notable that this was from opponents of both parties, including his own. This wasn't partisan digging for mud. His fellow Conservatives were digging too. Secondly, the investigator, albeit hired, found "disturbing" information, allegedly attempted to corroborate with his Russian sources and after doing so forwarded the info to his FBI friend who forwarded to FBI in Washington. Independent from that, a British ambassador to Russia was made aware of the details and forwarded the info to McCain, a Republican, who then in turn handed it over to Comey personally. I keep emphasizing the GOP's involvement in this because from reading some of the comments and listening to the pundits you get the sense that this is trying to be portrayed as partisan mudslinging. If you are skeptical of the allegations, that is fine, but be clear this isn't solely being driven by Liberals.

From there, according to CNN, the FBI has vetted the Mi6 agent and his sources. The intelligence communtiy felt comfortable to include this synopsis in their presentation. They assert Harry Reid, who was a member of the Gang of 8, was in a briefing and then in October sent an open letter to Comey suggesting Comey had information about contacts between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin and he needed to come forward with that information. At an intelligence hearing today or yesterday, Comey was asked if he could go into about what the FBI knew about relationships within the Trump and campaign and Russia and he said I can't talk about that in an open setting; I am happy to respond to you in a classified setting.

So, respectfully Jim, and to anyone else trying to assert or compare this to "fake news" that is complete ********. I acknowledged that everything CNN reported, at this time, were allegations and I would temper my responses as such while the veracity of the allegations were being tested. But, this is no where near the stratosphere of PizzaGate and shame on anyone for suggesting it.

What we have are allegations of fire to smoke that has been circling Trump and his camp for months on end. It may turn out to be untrue but this isn't "fake news" being manufactured from thin air based on illogical and crazy assumptions. There is a trail here based on uncorroborated intel and it is being vetted because it isn't US gathered but the purveyors of said intel felt comfortable enough to lay reputations and relationships on the line to protect US interests. All of us should be piquing with interest and demanding to know the truth of it all because the implications of it, if true, are indeed damning. They are allegations but as I said before, if you have followed this issue from the beginning then you know there is some smoke here. In another thread, Chuck posted this timeline about Trump's connections to the Russians:



Full disclosure, that is from an MSNBC/Rachael Maddow article but the timeline has factual information. If the allegations are true, then that timeline starts to make sense and we all need to be concerned with the weight of it. This isn't Pizza Gate.
The more clever among us can cast information, fake information, in a way where they aren't exactly saying anything directly false but still getting the false narrative out there. Consider that a substantial number of Democrats believe that Russia actually tampered with vote tallies. And remember that a substantial number of self-identified Republicans believed Iraq government played in a role in the 9/11 attacks. Even without media and political players actually saying such they could still spread the false narrative. As opposed to the less clever who spread something like the pizza pedophile story. And of course with hardly even a fraction of the belief in the story.


CNN is attempting to have it both ways on this current story.
It relies on unnamed sources to advance the story. Reliance on intelligence officials vetting of whatever - we don;t know.
The problem for CNN though is that the raw source of the intelligence material is available in this particular story and it lays bare the dishonesty in the report.
So CNN, like the New York Times and other news organizations, has the source material for the intelligence summary. But it refuses to publish it or even report on its details because it cannot substantiate anything in it.
But then it quotes unnamed sources in an attempt to add credibility to the intelligence summary?
I mean they obviously cannot substantiate any aspect of the substance that would drive such a report.
Do you not see the duplicity?
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:53 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by saintsfan26 View Post
And if it's false, will this anonymous source be held accountable? Of course not. They will just move on to the next fake news story. Disgusting liberal media.
But it's OK when Breitbart creates and/or passes on fake news, right??
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:03 AM   #221
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There is a false equivalence at work here.

Yes, the legitimate press sometimes has to use unnamed sources and cannot absolutely verify the beginnings of a large bombshell type story. So they go with what they have, while acknowledging that the story cannot, as yet, be independently confirmed. They compile multiple sources as best they can and attempt to make an ethical decision about whether to report.

As I recall, the Watergate story started out in much the same way and was mocked by people such as Jim at first. My memory might be fuzzy, because that was a long time ago, but that's what I recall. If this story turns out to be nothing, that will be duly reported by the legitimate media.

The false equivalency here is that Breitbart and Infowars will publish something like Pizzagate, which is a total fabrication of fevered minds. And when it is exposed as internet fantasy, they will either say nothing or continue to double down on something they know is totally false. You cannot be serious about attempting to create an equivalency between Breitbart, Infowars and CNN, New York Times, can you?

If so, I have to reconsider my opinion of you.
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:47 AM   #222
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https://theintercept.com/2017/01/11/...as-dems-cheer/
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:14 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saintsfan26 View Post
And if it's false, will this anonymous source be held accountable? Of course not. They will just move on to the next fake news story. Disgusting liberal media.
Where are the consequences for those that kept saying Obama wasn't a US citizen, used a fake birth certificate, etc?
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:16 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by billinms View Post
Where are the consequences for those that kept saying Obama wasn't a US citizen, used a fake birth certificate, etc?

They become the next president.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:17 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Dave View Post
What disgusting liberal media outlet brought us pizzagate? Fake new goes both ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintmdterps View Post
But it's OK when Breitbart creates and/or passes on fake news, right??
It's not fake news at all. Not even anywhere nears fake news. Both the appended report issued by US Intellegence and the dossier of memos exist. That is what is being reported. That is real and the reporting on that is accurate. What is not known is how much truth is in the dossier of memos. That is being investigated.

Pizzagate was a total fabrication by fake news sight.

Not the same thing. All Trump supports and Trump are doing is appropriating the word and trying to turn it around on the legitimate press news. It's a 3rd grade level of argument.

I.E.:

Said To Trump (Trump Supporter): "That's fake news Mr. Trump (Trump supporter)."

Trump (Trump Supporter) Response: "That's not fake news, your fake news. Na Na Ni Bo Bo."
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