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Old 01-11-2017, 03:20 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by coldseat View Post


That's an opinion piece. What's your point? That all of this is made up and we should not pay attention to it?
Plausible reason as to why intelligence would attach the two page memo to an intelligence briefing sent to Capitol Hill knowing that it would be leaked.
And yeah - I feel fairly confident in believing, until proven otherwise, that the memos are made up.
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:26 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEverett View Post
Plausible reason as to why intelligence would attach the two page memo to an intelligence briefing sent to Capitol Hill knowing that it would be leaked.
And yeah - I feel fairly confident in believing, until proven otherwise, that the memos are made up.
That's fine. You can hold that opinion. But all it is, is an opinion. You can join all of the Trump supports with your belief.

I don't know either way and have stated as much. I'm just following the credible reporting as it is updated and reserve the right to change my opinion based on what comes to light. I am not rooting for cheering for the information contained on the CIA report or reported memo's to be true, but I do want them investigated if there is reason to do so. And I want to establish as much of the truth as we're able to.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:48 PM   #199
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So, I spent 8 years defending Obama from over the top allegations, and while a little less vigorously 4 years of defending Bush... for the love of God, please don't make me start to defend Trump.

Basically the story should be nothing more than - Trump was briefed on Russian attempts to compromise him. That's it. We don't have substantiated reports on anything Russia might have on him, and it's getting a bit over the top.

Yes, Trump is incredibly unvetted. He may or may not have substantial financial ties to Russia. But the American public basically decided they didn't care. At this point - unless there is anything substantiated, it's a minor story. He's already elected. All we can do is monitor his actions and determine if we think what he's doing is in the best interest of the country.

Great, now I need to go take a shower.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:06 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim View Post
So, I spent 8 years defending Obama from over the top allegations, and while a little less vigorously 4 years of defending Bush... for the love of God, please don't make me start to defend Trump.

Basically the story should be nothing more than - Trump was briefed on Russian attempts to compromise him. That's it. We don't have substantiated reports on anything Russia might have on him, and it's getting a bit over the top.

Yes, Trump is incredibly unvetted. He may or may not have substantial financial ties to Russia. But the American public basically decided they didn't care. At this point - unless there is anything substantiated, it's a minor story. He's already elected. All we can do is monitor his actions and determine if we think what he's doing is in the best interest of the country.

Great, now I need to go take a shower.
Pretty much. Hence my lack of participation. There needs to be more in the way of Russia actually compromising Trump for this to be something worthy of my attention. I can't stand Trump, but I'm not gonna get involved in throwing stuff to see if it sticks. Until there's more we can trust as reliable evidence of corruption, I'm gonna wait and see.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:14 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim View Post
So, I spent 8 years defending Obama from over the top allegations, and while a little less vigorously 4 years of defending Bush... for the love of God, please don't make me start to defend Trump.

Basically the story should be nothing more than - Trump was briefed on Russian attempts to compromise him. That's it. We don't have substantiated reports on anything Russia might have on him, and it's getting a bit over the top.

Yes, Trump is incredibly unvetted. He may or may not have substantial financial ties to Russia. But the American public basically decided they didn't care. At this point - unless there is anything substantiated, it's a minor story. He's already elected. All we can do is monitor his actions and determine if we think what he's doing is in the best interest of the country.

Great, now I need to go take a shower.
I mean, isn't this what many people are saying in the thread? I don't think anybody's rushing to condemn Trump based solely on these allegations (frankly we have plenty of stuff to condemn him on without these allegations).
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:20 PM   #202
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So, I feel a responsibility to weigh in about this because I initially commented on the story and brought it up in another thread and started one of the two threads that created this merge. First, let's be clear on what CNN actually said about how the information was obtained. This is verbatim from Bernstein (emphasis mine):

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Originally Posted by CNN
It came from a former British Mi6 intelligence agent who was hired by a political opposition research firm in Washington who was doing work about Donald Trump for both Republican and Democratic candidates opposed to Trump. They were looking at Trump's business ties. They saw some questionable things about Russians. About his businesses in Russia. They in turned hired this former Mi6 investigator. He then came up with additional information from his Russian sources. He was very concerned about the implications of it. He then took it to an FBI colleague that he had known in his undercover work for years. He took it to this FBI man in Rome who turned it over to the FBI in Washington in August. Then, a former British ambassador to Russia, independently was made aware of these findings and he took the information to John McCain in the period just after the election. He showed it to McCain; additional findings. McCain was sufficiently disturbed by what he read to take it to FBI Director James Comey himself personally. They had a 5 minute meeting, the two men. Very little was said. McCain turned it over to him and is now awaiting what the FBI's response is to this information.
For starters, this is an important point because while the information gathering started from the direction of political opponents of Trump it is notable that this was from opponents of both parties, including his own. This wasn't partisan digging for mud. His fellow Conservatives were digging too. Secondly, the investigator, albeit hired, found "disturbing" information, allegedly attempted to corroborate with his Russian sources and after doing so forwarded the info to his FBI friend who forwarded to FBI in Washington. Independent from that, a British ambassador to Russia was made aware of the details and forwarded the info to McCain, a Republican, who then in turn handed it over to Comey personally. I keep emphasizing the GOP's involvement in this because from reading some of the comments and listening to the pundits you get the sense that this is trying to be portrayed as partisan mudslinging. If you are skeptical of the allegations, that is fine, but be clear this isn't solely being driven by Liberals.

From there, according to CNN, the FBI has vetted the Mi6 agent and his sources. The intelligence communtiy felt comfortable to include this synopsis in their presentation. They assert Harry Reid, who was a member of the Gang of 8, was in a briefing and then in October sent an open letter to Comey suggesting Comey had information about contacts between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin and he needed to come forward with that information. At an intelligence hearing today or yesterday, Comey was asked if he could go into about what the FBI knew about relationships within the Trump and campaign and Russia and he said I can't talk about that in an open setting; I am happy to respond to you in a classified setting.

So, respectfully Jim, and to anyone else trying to assert or compare this to "fake news" that is complete ********. I acknowledged that everything CNN reported, at this time, were allegations and I would temper my responses as such while the veracity of the allegations were being tested. But, this is no where near the stratosphere of PizzaGate and shame on anyone for suggesting it.

What we have are allegations of fire to smoke that has been circling Trump and his camp for months on end. It may turn out to be untrue but this isn't "fake news" being manufactured from thin air based on illogical and crazy assumptions. There is a trail here based on uncorroborated intel and it is being vetted because it isn't US gathered but the purveyors of said intel felt comfortable enough to lay reputations and relationships on the line to protect US interests. All of us should be piquing with interest and demanding to know the truth of it all because the implications of it, if true, are indeed damning. They are allegations but as I said before, if you have followed this issue from the beginning then you know there is some smoke here. In another thread, Chuck posted this timeline about Trump's connections to the Russians:

Quote:
September 30, 2015: Trump, the then-frontrunner for the Republican presidential nomination, publicly praised the Russian autocrat while denouncing the American president, declaring, “I will tell you that, in terms of leadership, [Putin’s] getting an ‘A’ and our president is not doing so well.”

October 15, 2015: After an international consensus emerged that pro-Russian forces in Ukraine shot down Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, killing nearly 300 people, Trump stressed Russia’s denial, adding, “No one really knows who did it.”

December 17, 2015: At an annual press conference, Putin sang Trump’s praises. Though precise translations vary, by one account, the Russian president said of the Republican, “He’s a really brilliant and talented person, without any doubt. It’s not our job to judge his qualities, that’s a job for American voters, but he’s the absolute leader in the presidential race.”

December 18, 2015: Trump appeared on MSNBC and was asked about Putin’s habit of invading countries and killing critics. “He’s running his country, and at least he’s a leader,” Trump replied, “unlike what we have in this country.” Reminded that Putin has been accused of ordering the murder of journalists, Trump replied, “Well, I think our country does plenty of killing also.”

April 20, 2016: Trump elevated Paul Manafort, a Republican lobbyist with longstanding ties to Putin’s government in Russia, to serve as his campaign chairman.

April 27, 2016: Trump delivered a speech outlining his foreign-policy vision and vowed to ease “tensions” between Russia and the United States, and end “this horrible cycle of hostility.” While the GOP candidate talked about all of the things he expects countries like China and Mexico to do to make a Trump administration happy, he made no comparable demands of Russia or its leaders.

May 5, 2016: Trump sat down for an interview with Fox News’ Bret Baier, who asked if he’d ever spoken directly to Vladimir Putin. “Yeah, I have no comment on that,” Trump replied. “No comment.” Reminded that he rarely shies away from questions, the presidential candidate added, “Yeah, but I don’t want to comment.”

July 13, 2016: Delegates to the Republican National Convention reported that Trump campaign officials quietly worked behind the scenes to make the party’s platform more in line with Russia’s preferences. One GOP congressman was quoted saying soon after that the “most under-covered story of convention” was Team Trump’s efforts to change the party platform “to be more pro-Putin.”

July 20, 2016: The New York Times asked Trump if he’d honor the NATO treaty and defend allied nations if attacked. Trump balked – saying he’d check first to see if he’s satisfied with their contributions to the alliance. “We have many NATO members that aren’t paying their bills,” he said. (Putin, of course, is a fierce NATO critic.)

July 24, 2016: Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager, Robby Mook, told ABC News, “Experts are telling us that Russian state actors broke into the DNC…. It’s troubling that some experts are now telling us that this was done by the Russians for the purpose of helping Donald Trump.” The same day, a Washington Post report added, “In the past 24 hours, cybersecurity experts have said that the email cache released by WikiLeaks on Friday appears to have been given to the anti-secrecy group by Russian intelligence.”

July 27, 2016: In a move without precedent in American history, Trump held a press conference in which he publicly urged Putin’s espionage services to help sabotage the Clinton campaign and put help Trump in the White House.

July 31, 2016: Following a series of contradictory statements about the nature of his connections with Putin – at different times, Trump said he “got to know him very well,” followed by, “I don’t know who Putin is” – the Republican candidate was asked to clarify. Trump responded, “I had – no, I – look. What do you call a relationship?”

July 31, 2016: In the same interview, Trump conceded that people on his team may have weakened the Republican platform to be more in line with Putin’s wishes.

September 23, 2016: Yahoo News reported that Carter Page, a Trump foreign policy adviser, was suspected by U.S. intelligence officials of having “opened up private communications with senior Russian officials – including talks about the possible lifting of economic sanctions if the Republican nominee becomes president.”

September 26, 2016: Despite having been briefed by intelligence officials on Russia’s role in the DNC hack, Trump declares at a debate, “I don’t think anybody knows it was Russia that broke into the DNC. [Clinton’s] saying, ‘Russia, Russia, Russia,’ but I don’t – maybe it was. I mean, it could be Russia, but it could also be China. It could also be lots of other people. It also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds, OK?”

October 9, 2016: During the second presidential debate, Trump announced that he disagreed with his own running mate about “provocations by Russia” needing to be met “with American strength.” Trump specifically said, “[Mike Pence] and I haven’t spoken, and I disagree.”

October 9, 2016: At the same event, despite having already speculated about the source of the DNC hack, Trump declared, “Maybe there is no hacking.”

October 17, 2016: Trump complained that Clinton’s rhetoric towards Putin was too “tough,” and she shouldn’t be so quick to “insult” the Russian leader. Trump added, “If I win on Nov. 8, I could see myself meeting with Putin and meeting with Russia prior to the start of the administration.”

October 19, 2016: In the final presidential debate, Clinton explained that Putin would “rather have a puppet as president of the United States.” Trump responded, “No puppet. No puppet. You’re the puppet. No, you’re the puppet.”

October 19, 2016: In the same debate, the moderator asked Trump if he rejects the assessments from U.S. intelligence officials about Russia’s U.S. cyber-attack. The Republican replied, “Yeah, I doubt it. I doubt it.”

October 27, 2016: The same day Trump complained it’s not “smart” for Clinton to speak “badly” about Putin, the Russian president publicly praised the Republican candidate. “He represents the interests of the part of the society tired of the elites that have held power for decades,” Putin said.

November 10, 2016: Despite denials from Trump campaign officials, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said “there were contacts” between the Russian government and Trump’s team before the U.S. presidential election. Further contradicting the Republican campaign’s claims, Ryabkov added that “quite a few” members of Trump’s team “have been staying in touch with Russian representatives” ahead of the American election.

November 23, 2016: McClatchy reported that Trump had spoken directly with Putin after the U.S. election more than he’d talked to any other foreign leader.

December 3, 2016: Viktor Nazarov, the governor of Omsk, Russia, declared in a radio interview, “It turns out that United Russia won the elections in America.”

December 4, 2016: Putin again publicly praised Trump, telling a Russian television station, “Because he achieved success in business, it suggests that he is a clever man.”

December 9, 2016: Confronted with reports that the CIA believes Russia tried to help elect Trump, Trump’s transition team issued a statement – which didn’t include a denial – criticizing U.S. intelligence agencies.

December 11, 2016: Trump said he’s considering ExxonMobil CEO Rex Tillerson, Putin’s closest American ally, to be his Secretary of State nominee, in part because Tillerson “does massive deals in Russia.”
Full disclosure, that is from an MSNBC/Rachael Maddow article but the timeline has factual information. If the allegations are true, then that timeline starts to make sense and we all need to be concerned with the weight of it. This isn't Pizza Gate.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:26 PM   #203
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I mean, isn't this what many people are saying in the thread? I don't think anybody's rushing to condemn Trump based solely on these allegations (frankly we have plenty of stuff to condemn him on without these allegations).
I dunno, I think people are overreacting to a story with questionable sources and those sources very possibly have questionable motives. Russia blackmailing/compromising Trump is a very serious charge and I would want something ironclad before trying to make the case.

And, indeed, there's a lot Trump can be criticized for, but this isn't one of them, at least not yet.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:41 PM   #204
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BuzzFeed was right to publish Trump-Russia files - Columbia Journalism Review

Columbia Journalism Review sort of successfully defends Buzzfeed's decision. I can't say I agree on the whole, but interesting points are made vis-a-vis the practical inefficacy of traditional journalistic approaches in a post-fact society.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:53 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim View Post
Great, now I need to go take a shower.

I see what you did there.



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Old 01-11-2017, 06:13 PM   #206
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Full disclosure, that is from an MSNBC/Rachael Maddow article but the timeline has factual information. If the allegations are true, then that timeline starts to make sense and we all need to be concerned with the weight of it. This isn't Pizza Gate.
So, I put this under information that should have made people wary of voting him. I do think it's "newsworthy", but it's still just smoke. For whatever reason, American voters were comfortable voting for a man that was not well vetted. It's their choice.

The actual evidence is still raw intelligence, which tends to be a big mish mash of varying levels of credibility.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:39 PM   #207
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Yeah, I didn't give any credence to the golden shower part of the allegations. That could very well be planted to make the rest seem less plausible.

Most of the rest, though, was certainly credible. With Manafort and others as part of his campaign I would be surprised if there weren't contact with Kremlin operatives during the campaign. That doesn't make it right or proper, just believable. Whether it matters or not, well, all we can do is keep a close eye on his decisions for appearances of impropriety.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:53 PM   #208
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So, I put this under information that should have made people wary of voting him. I do think it's "newsworthy", but it's still just smoke. For whatever reason, American voters were comfortable voting for a man that was not well vetted. It's their choice.

The actual evidence is still raw intelligence, which tends to be a big mish mash of varying levels of credibility.
I agree with that Jim. I felt that way then and I feel that way now. To be fair, when I first commented on this subject it was within the very large Trump/Russian Hacking thread because I felt it fit there. Some posters opined that they felt this deserved its own thread and 15 pages in and I tend to agree that wasn't a bad decision. It is discussion worthy. I would also say that these allegations, albeit still allegations, start moving this topic to a new level that is discussion worthy. The smoke is starting to make my eyes water.

This 2nd part isn't directed to you but it is on my chest so I will speak it. Forgive my bluntness, but Trump and his supporters can cry me a river about discussing these allegations and "fake news." His foray into politics was on the back of allegations. Allegations that fit the criteria for "fake news" way more than this report. That didn't stop them and him from beating the Birther stuff into the ground with no basis or factual proof. I'm sorry the two aren't even close. I provided a detailed post about CNN's reasons for reporting that story. The "meat" of it may still be under investigation but the fact a synopsis exists and was discussed with both the POTUS and PEOTUS seems to be plausible and credible and no one has denied that that synopsis exists or was discussed in those meetings. It is relevant and I will discuss it and I'm not acquiescing to those whose feathers are rustled at the possibility of the PEOTUS being involved in something so treacherous. There is enough here to make it worthy of discussion, imo.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:07 PM   #209
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There are some quite interesting parallels between this and the birther stuff, although the latter seemed to have much less basis in real-world circumstance.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:26 PM   #210
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Read between the lines of what the former acting director of the CIA is saying.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/11/politi...rump-amanpour/
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