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Old 03-23-2012, 06:47 AM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superchuck500 View Post
I think you have to get pretty far fetched to come up with scenarios where Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life. Martin was walking away from Zimmerman. Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend having a conversation and continued to have a conversation with her as he was walking away from Zimmerman and Zimmerman closed on him. He was carrying a can of ice tea and some candy that he had just bought at the convenience store.

It isn't a question of whether someone was an "aggressor" - it's really simply a question of whether Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force. Did he reasonably fear for his life?

"I really have enjoyed talking with you baby, but hold on, I gotta go beat this guy to death with my Arizona tea."

It just doesn't add up to a credible story of reasonable fear of Zimmerman's life.

Chuck, please do not think I was trying to find a way to excuse Zimmerman or find a way to take any blame off of him. My comment was directed at another poster who suggested that because Martin yelled for help then that proved Zimmerman MUST have been the aggressor.

The single point of Martin yelling for help does not automatically prove who was the aggressor. I was simply giving an example of how the person yelling for help could in fact have been the original aggressor. It was just an example and not my thoughts on what actually happened in this incident.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:07 AM   #272
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Growing outcry over Trayvon Martin's death - CBS News

A couple things in this story have me curious. For instance:

CBS News has learned detectives interviewed Zimmerman for five hours the night of the shooting, and again the following day at a re-enactment of the incident. A source close to the investigation told us there was no arrest because the evidence, including Zimmerman's bloody and bruised face, seemed to support his claim of self-defense.

Why have we not heard this before? I was under the impression he was never questioned, and just released. Also never heard about a bruised and bloody face. Where are the pictures of this?

and

A day later, Zimmerman also passed a voice stress test.

What is a voice stress test? From what I have quickly read it doesn't sound too definitive.

If I was a police officer and found someone that was bruised and bloody I guess I would assume he was defending himself.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:12 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semper View Post
Growing outcry over Trayvon Martin's death - CBS News

A couple things in this story have me curious. For instance:

CBS News has learned detectives interviewed Zimmerman for five hours the night of the shooting, and again the following day at a re-enactment of the incident. A source close to the investigation told us there was no arrest because the evidence, including Zimmerman's bloody and bruised face, seemed to support his claim of self-defense.

Why have we not heard this before? I was under the impression he was never questioned, and just released. Also never heard about a bruised and bloody face. Where are the pictures of this?

and

A day later, Zimmerman also passed a voice stress test.

What is a voice stress test? From what I have quickly read it doesn't sound too definitive.

If I was a police officer and found someone that was bruised and bloody I guess I would assume he was defending himself.
Cool. So if a guy punches me in the face and leaves a bruise, I can shoot him. Where's my 9mm? I'm going to pick a fight!

The police department now seems to be in "trying-to-cover-their-***" mode.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:16 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildog View Post
Cool. So if a guy punches me in the face and leaves a bruise, I can shoot him. Where's my 9mm? I'm going to pick a fight!

The police department now seems to be in "trying-to-cover-their-***" mode.
If a guy punches you in the face and leaves you bloodied and bruised and you are in fear of your life then yes you can shoot him according to what I understand of the Florida law. I am not positive of that at all.

On a side note when you were in the Marines where were you stationed and what did you do? Enlisted or an officer?
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:17 AM   #275
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And for the record I am not saying that this shooting was justified. Just saying that I never had heard these details before.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:27 AM   #276
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The first report I read said Zimmerman had some marks/scratches on his head and face.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:29 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEverett View Post
The first report I read said Zimmerman had some marks/scratches on his head and face.
That's what I had read also. Wouldn't they have taken pictures? I have never been arrested or anything but it seems to me they would at least take pictures of the guy for their records. Also the chief or whatever needs to just quit. What an idiot move to allow an officer who was already questionable at best investigate this case.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:32 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semper View Post
If a guy punches you in the face and leaves you bloodied and bruised and you are in fear of your life then yes you can shoot him according to what I understand of the Florida law. I am not positive of that at all.
There would also be evidence all over the dead guys hands, wouldn't ya think? DNA? Scratches/bruises on his hands? Some of the dead guy's DNA on the shooter's head and neck? Shouldn't this have been investigated and evidence taken?
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:34 AM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V Chip View Post
There would also be evidence all over the dead guys hands, wouldn't ya think? DNA? Scratches/bruises on his hands? Some of the dead guy's DNA on the shooter's head and neck? Shouldn't this have been investigated and evidence taken?
I agree. I guess I watch too much NCIS. Those guys take pictures of everything.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:39 AM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semper View Post
If a guy punches you in the face and leaves you bloodied and bruised and you are in fear of your life then yes you can shoot him according to what I understand of the Florida law. I am not positive of that at all.

On a side note when you were in the Marines where were you stationed and what did you do? Enlisted or an officer?
I was stationed all over. MCAS Tustin, MCAS Cherry Point, and MCAS Miramar. I was an Aviation Ordnanceman but my first unit was a CH-53 squadron, so I became a "home grown" crew chief and aerial gunnery instructor. I was enlisted and was medically discharged as a SSgt.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:43 AM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semper View Post
And for the record I am not saying that this shooting was justified. Just saying that I never had heard these details before.
Oh, I know you weren't saying that. I just wonder why it took so long for that "info" to come to light. I mean, if you were fighting for your life with someone who was following you for no reason at night, I'm sure you would try to fight off your attacker. That would mean he would have some sort of physical signs of a fight.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:48 AM   #282
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For the sake of argument, let's assume that Trayvon actually WAS the aggressor, since some are trying to paint him that way.

Since we have some limited facts about the case, we also know that Trayvon was on his cell phone with his girlfriend telling her about a creepy guy that was following him. We also know that at some point, Trayvon began running, and according to the girlfriend, it was because he was afraid of the man following him.

So now, let's say, for sake of argument, that Trayvon is running, fearing for his safety. The creepy guy begins pursuing him. Let's say the creepy guy catches up to him.

What would your first reaction be? In the dead of night, when I, at this point, KNOW someone is following me, and I can't get away, I'm pretty sure I'd go straight to punching, too.

In fact, that would be supported by Florida's stand-your-ground law. Trayvon felt threatened, and when the option of fleeing (which isn't even required under the stand-your-ground law) was taken from him, he stood his ground and attacked. Trayvon was acting in self-defense, even if he attacked first.

Funny part about this stupid law is that at some point, BOTH people in a fight are acting in self-defense, so neither can be charged?
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:08 AM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildog View Post
I was stationed all over. MCAS Tustin, MCAS Cherry Point, and MCAS Miramar. I was an Aviation Ordnanceman but my first unit was a CH-53 squadron, so I became a "home grown" crew chief and aerial gunnery instructor. I was enlisted and was medically discharged as a SSgt.
Thank you for your service. I was a Corpsman with 3/8 in Camp Lejeune. I have been to Cherry Point a few times. I was in from Nov. 90-94.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:11 AM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon8283 View Post
For the sake of argument, let's assume that Trayvon actually WAS the aggressor, since some are trying to paint him that way.

Since we have some limited facts about the case, we also know that Trayvon was on his cell phone with his girlfriend telling her about a creepy guy that was following him. We also know that at some point, Trayvon began running, and according to the girlfriend, it was because he was afraid of the man following him.

So now, let's say, for sake of argument, that Trayvon is running, fearing for his safety. The creepy guy begins pursuing him. Let's say the creepy guy catches up to him.

What would your first reaction be? In the dead of night, when I, at this point, KNOW someone is following me, and I can't get away, I'm pretty sure I'd go straight to punching, too.

In fact, that would be supported by Florida's stand-your-ground law. Trayvon felt threatened, and when the option of fleeing (which isn't even required under the stand-your-ground law) was taken from him, he stood his ground and attacked. Trayvon was acting in self-defense, even if he attacked first.

Funny part about this stupid law is that at some point, BOTH people in a fight are acting in self-defense, so neither can be charged?
Good points. I don't think we are going to ever learn all the truth of this and that is wrong. I personally feel this young man felt threatened and defended himself and Zimmerman realized he wasn't just pushing a kid around but was about to get his butt kicked and he took out his gun and shot him. I have nothing to back this up just a feeling. And I also feel this kid had every right in the world to defend himself.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:32 AM   #285
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I think the relevant part of the "stand your ground" law is going to be the fact that the law says that if you are "attacked you may meet force with force, up to, and including deadly force."

So, if it comes down to it, a few things will have to be addressed:
--Martin is walking down the street, sees Zimmerman in hi car, watching him, and walks away. Zimmerman gets out of his car, and chases Martin, and Martin begins to run. At some point, Zimmerman catches up to Martin.

Would chasing someone down be considered an attack? If so, then Martin would be justified in meeting force with force.

If Martin was not doing anything illegal (which it's apparent that he wasn't), he would need to reasonably fear serious bodily harm in order to respond with force. I would think that the argument could be made that a teenager who saw a strange man 100lbs heavier than him chasing him would have reason to be in fear. So, at that point, Martin would be fully justified in responding with force.

Which raises the next question. If Zimmerman's actions cause Martin to be in fear of bodily harm, and justifies Martin's action of force against Zimmerman; would *THAT* be considered "an attack" in the eyes of a jury? If so, then it could be argued that Zimmerman's actions would fall under the "stand your ground" law. However, if the jury/law does not consider it to be an attack (since Martin was justified in using force), then the stand your ground law would no longer apply.
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