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Old 03-28-2012, 02:33 PM   #511
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Hmm I gotcha Jim. Well....it looks clearly that neither of these were the sharpest tacks in the box and both were more into confrontations than talking things out.

At no point if some dude is following me will I go and start to fight with the guy. That's dumb and you're looking for trouble (because you never know, the guy might be a little "off" and have a gun!). Zimmerman is also very dumb for not following 911's orders. But being he did call 911, he was trying to do the right thing.

Looks to me that we have a perfect timing of stupidness. Of course being that it's not 2 black guys, everyone will yell racism. What else will they yell?

But of course I don't even own a gun, much more driving around with it monitoring the neighborhood with one.

I guess this just confirms to me that there are way too many stupid people in this world. When stupid clashes...bad things happen.

It's sad that a guy lost his life over something this stupid. But I also can't put all the blame on Zimmerman.

Again I'll reiterate, my reasons for coming here is that I don't know all the facts and hope to learn them all.

Was this guy walking in a gated community at night with a hoodie on? I mean....if so....you are plain stupid and looking to be watched.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:43 PM   #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre View Post
I think there is a big problem with the media here.

For the first week or so after this happened, all we heard was about how a white neighborhood watchman shot an angelic and baby faced (as seen by his picture) black kid who was never in trouble. Furthermore, the white guy shot the kid as the kid, just trying to get home, screamed for help. Then the police simply chose not to arrest the white guy based on his statements.

...

But for some reason, the media chose to paint the first picture, get everyone whipped up into a frenzy, and then some of the media's depictions came out untrue. And it shouldn't change the horror that a kid was killed; it doesn't make Trayvon more culpable; and it really doesn't seem to let the police off the hook for not arresting the Zimmerman guy at the least. So why did they even try to paint the story that way in the first place?
I think the matter of the media has become its own flawed subplot in this.

First of all, anybody who believed Trayvon Martin was a perfect kid who never did any wrong was setting themselves up to be disappointed. He's human and it was only a matter of time before indiscretions were found.

To suggest that there was a widespread conspiracy by the media to willfully distort this case in ways that are frequently being cited requires knowledge of what the media knew and had access to and an ability to show they acted together in selectively suppressing information.

Did media outlets have more recent photos of Trayvon Martin early on but intentionally ran with younger pictures anyway? I don't know, do any of you? I also remember people waiting for an image of Zimmerman to emerge and when it did, it was the photo we're all aware of that was reportedly his mugshot from a previous arrest. Did the media have access to other, verified photos at the time but all chose to run that one instead?

And verification is important, as we saw from the effort by some to discredit Martin's credibility by transmitting photos that weren't of him, through various media channels. (Personally, I hope that effort to paint him negatively bothers people far more in terms of malicious intent to distort this case.)

Certainly opinion allows for distortion and media outlets have acted deliberately, but often times it's the process of the picture coming together more clearly with verifiable information filling in the blanks, or supplementing what is already known.

And don't forget, the nature of the news industry makes it highly competitive -- everybody is trying to outscoop everybody. Information might seem slow in coming but in a case like this, where there's a rush to break the next item, it's not usually from a lack of digging. Really, really doubtful anybody in the media was sitting on newer pictures or negative information about Martin's past hoping the next agency didn't discover it and run it first -- which is pretty much what we'd have to believe to buy into this idea of a widespread concerted effort to mislead the public.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:46 PM   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWJJ View Post
My point was more to the lack of outrage that this guy walks the street. Now the coverage and outrage have both been growing over the course of several weeks now.

I honestly believe if this was a middle upper class white kid that got shot with a similar history as the victim, Zimmerman been locked up long ago.

The whole thing is perposturous.

Facts are simple as this:
Zimmerman was armed
Martin was not
Zimmerman admits to shooting Martin
Zimmerman follows Martin after calling 911 and being told not to.

In summary I refuse to believe that my son(or anyone) could be walking down the street, breaking no law, doing nothing wrong, and an overzealous trigger happy fool mistake him for being up to no good, follow him, resulting in a confrontation, shoots my son (or anyone) and walks free.


Regardless of who the "agreesor" is.


If you don't understand why Zimmerman is a danger to society, and you simply disparage the victim in some misguided effort to justify his slaughter, you are either an idiot or a racist or both.


the law doesnt permit people to hit other people - i follow all your points but its all about what is legal and what is not and slamming another persons head into the sidewalk (if witness are correct) is an illegal act which could end in a fatality of that person.


as for as idiots, racists etc - before we attack people who simply form opinions based on their understanding of the facts and the law - we may want to look at the actions of those who arenít capable of understanding or accepting either.


IMO spike lee should be arrested along with those of BPP and if evidence points to zimmerman he should be arrested as well - as it stands the martin supporters (not those on this site) have sunk to an all time new low in human decency, understanding of their actions and any intelligence what so ever.

Sadly other than some slight criticism from certain members of the press/public their actions will go unpunished as well


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Old 03-28-2012, 02:47 PM   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james_k_p View Post
Hmm I gotcha Jim. Well....it looks clearly that neither of these were the sharpest tacks in the box and both were more into confrontations than talking things out.

At no point if some dude is following me will I go and start to fight with the guy. That's dumb and you're looking for trouble. Zimmerman is also very dumb for not following 911's orders.

Looks to me that we have a perfect timing of stupidness. Of course being that it's not 2 black guys, everyone will yell racism. What else will they yell?

But of course I don't even own a gun, much more driving around with it monitoring the neighborhood with one.

I guess this just confirms to me that there are way too many stupid people in this world. When stupid clashes...bad things happen.

It's sad that a guy lost his life over something this stupid. But I also can't put all the blame on Zimmerman.

Again I'll reiterate, my reasons for coming here is that I don't know all the facts and hope to learn them all.

Was this guy walking in a gated community at night with a hoodie on? I mean....if so....you are plain stupid and looking to be watched.
A couple of things. Why is it "stupid" to walk at night with or without a hoodie? There's nothing illegal about it, and it's a legitimate way to go out and buy snacks which was what he was doing. I've never heard of a neighborhood watch just following someone without identifying themselves. Either they phone it in to the police, or they identify themselves... just slowly following a guy is not typical NW behavior from what I know about them, so that does not seem to be a reasonable expectation.

Second, we don't really know what happened in the confrontation to determine whether Trayvon acted "stupidly" or not. His girlfriend was on the phone with him at the time and claimed he was running away from the person following him... but let's put that aside and say he did initiate a confrontation. It's a big leap to say, that initiating a confrontation with someone in a gated community is not merely "stupid" but lethally stupid. I'm not sure it's a reasonable expectation to be killed in such a situation.

Finally, even if it's a matter of them acting stupidly, they aren't necessarily equivocal. Only one person was armed in the situation, and that person outweighed Trayvon by a hundred pounds. I'm not sure how that person can claim to be in fear of their life. Again, I don't know all the facts, so there could be a circumstance where that is true, but it seems unlikely.

On the flip side, I vehemently disagree with some of the actions being taken like posting Zimmerman's address on twitter (it was the wrong person even)... Spike Lee participated in this, and that as well seems criminal to me as well.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:48 PM   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWJJ View Post
My point was more to the lack of outrage that this guy walks the street. Now the coverage and outrage have both been growing over the course of several weeks now.

I honestly believe if this was a middle upper class white kid that got shot with a similar history as the victim, Zimmerman been locked up long ago.

The whole thing is perposturous.

Facts are simple as this:
Zimmerman was armed
Martin was not
Zimmerman admits to shooting Martin
Zimmerman follows Martin after calling 911 and being told not to.

In summary I refuse to believe that my son(or anyone) could be walking down the street, breaking no law, doing nothing wrong, and an overzealous trigger happy fool mistake him for being up to no good, follow him, resulting in a confrontation, shoots my son (or anyone) and walks free.


Regardless of who the "agreesor" is.


If you don't understand why Zimmerman is a danger to society, and you simply disparage the victim in some misguided effort to justify his slaughter, you are either an idiot or a racist or both.
You're obviously very emotional about this subject, so I'm going to say upfront, I'm just offering some unbiased counter-points.

Facts are simple as this: - disagree about your points being facts....half-facts maybe.
Zimmerman was armed -it is legal to carry a weapon in Florida
Martin was not -Irrelevant
Zimmerman admits to shooting Martin - "....in self-defense" should be the rest of your point here.
Zimmerman follows Martin after calling 911 and being told not to.

The facts that you listed won't convict Zimmerman. What will convict Zimmerman will be if the Feds find out his accounts of what happened are false. Or, if Martin was gunned down in cold blood.

If Zimmerman, albeit dumb, did approach Martin with the intent on finding out if he belonged there and Martin attacked, Zimmerman was within his rights to shoot. There is a huge racially motivated elephant in the room when it comes to the reason Zimmerman followed Martin to begin with. But, once you get past that is what will free, or convict, Zimmerman and IMO is what should be focused on.

I hope to find out exactly what happened that night so all of the immediate friends and family can have some closure.

I can easily paint the picture where Zimmerman was perfectly right to shoot Martin.

I can easily paint the picture that Martin was basically forced into an altercation for his life.

Both are speculation at this time.....and because the two guys were alone for the majority of this event, I don't think we'll ever know exactly what took place.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:51 PM   #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHI-TOWNSAINT View Post
If Zimmerman, albeit dumb, did approach Martin with the intent on finding out if he belonged there and Martin attacked, Zimmerman was within his rights to shoot. .
Is this true? I thought you had to have a legitimate fear for your own life. That's why it is relevant that Martin was not armed. And why it's relevant that Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 100 pounds.

By your logic, I can walk up to a black person in Florida, and call him a ****** and his girl a nappy-headed ho, and if he reaches back to deck me I can shoot him. I hardly think this true.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:52 PM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
I think the matter of the media has become its own flawed subplot in this.

First of all, anybody who believed Trayvon Martin was a perfect kid who never did any wrong was setting themselves up to be disappointed. He's human and it was only a matter of time before indiscretions were found.

To suggest that there was a widespread conspiracy by the media to willfully distort this case in ways that are frequently being cited requires knowledge of what the media knew and had access to and an ability to show they acted together in selectively suppressing information.

Did media outlets have more recent photos of Trayvon Martin early on but intentionally ran with younger pictures anyway? I don't know, do any of you? I also remember people waiting for an image of Zimmerman to emerge and when it did, it was the photo we're all aware of that was reportedly his mugshot from a previous arrest. Did the media have access to other, verified photos at the time but all chose to run that one instead?

And verification is important, as we saw from the effort by some to discredit Martin's credibility by transmitting photos that weren't of him, through various media channels. (Personally, I hope that effort to paint him negatively bothers people far more in terms of malicious intent to distort this case.)

Certainly opinion allows for distortion and media outlets have acted deliberately, but often times it's the process of the picture coming together more clearly with verifiable information filling in the blanks, or supplementing what is already known.

And don't forget, the nature of the news industry makes it highly competitive -- everybody is trying to outscoop everybody. Information might seem slow in coming but in a case like this, where there's a rush to break the next item, it's not usually from a lack of digging. Really, really doubtful anybody in the media was sitting on newer pictures or negative information about Martin's past hoping the next agency didn't discover it and run it first -- which is pretty much what we'd have to believe to buy into this idea of a widespread concerted effort to mislead the public.
Anyone could have gotten a profile picture on Facebook instead of one that was several years old. And the media being highly competitive exonerates them in no way. I agree that they are competitive, but they are competitive enough to also know that making the story as sensational as possible would help them.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:52 PM   #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james_k_p View Post
I don't know much about this, so I'm curious if these facts are out, and if so, please enlighten me.

What time of the day/night was this? Was it at night? In the middle of the night? I'm a suspicious kind of guy and if I see anyone walking with a hoodie on (hiding appearance/identity) at night, I'm suspicious.

Why would some guy, despite race, get into a scuffle with another guy asking about what's he's up to as he's with the neighborhood watch?

Although, what danger would it be in going up to another human....unless???
Quote:
Originally Posted by james_k_p View Post
I'd respond, "oh ok, well I'm just walking back to my house after getting some snacks".

Then I'd move on.

If he wants to follow me all the way to my house, that's fine. What harm is that? If I really had a fear of him not being with neighborhood watch, I'd simply call the police at that time when I got home.

So the question is....who had the attitude and was probably cocky enough to start mouthing off and leading to a horrible situation?
this is really strange - these questions don't seem like an open, honest desire to understand what actually might've happened

each one of these has a predictable answer and the predictable answers are skewed toward a conclusions that's already drawn

so when I read your questions, I feel like you're just asking them so that I arrive at the same answer you share, but your list of questions is actually quite flawed and are meant to exonerate Zimmerman's behavior while condemning Martin's response.

i.e.:

Quote:
In the middle of the night? I'm a suspicious kind of guy and if I see anyone walking with a hoodie on (hiding appearance/identity) at night, I'm suspicious.
so you're justifying Zimmerman's suspicion based on nothing more than a hoodie. You're acting as if that's not problematic. That suspicion based on a hoodie that leads to following a complete stranger is reasonable. I don't think it is.

Quote:
Why would some guy, despite race, get into a scuffle with another guy asking about what's he's up to as he's with the neighborhood watch?
the assumption here is that Martin was the aggressor in the final confrontation. We don't even know that much. I find even the premise problematic because you're skipping past an entire series of events in order to arrive at the final one and, once there, assume that the "scuffle" was Martin's fault.

That doesn't read like a sincere question - it's loaded with assumptions
Quote:
Although, what danger would it be in going up to another human....unless??
again, strange. It appears as though you are suggesting that there should be no expectation of conflict or "scuffle" for Zimmerman... unless???? Following the logic of your question, it appears that we are supposed to fill in the "?????" with "unless Martin was looking to start something" If that's not the proper conclusion, feel free to offer what you mean. But at the end of this post, with that question, I am led to believe that there is no reasonable expectation of violence in such an encounter unless Martin escalates a situation of being followed by a member of the neighborhood watch.
Quote:
Then I'd move on.
more assumptions. The underlying message, again, is that Martin was wrong for not moving on. If he had moved on, then he wouldn't have been shot and killed. We have one side, one story. And conflicting, very limited witness information.

And yet, the way you frame this comment places blame on the party that didn't simply "move on" - and, again, we don't even know how applicable this was for Martin in the first place.

Quote:
If he wants to follow me all the way to my house, that's fine. What harm is that?
this might be the most bizarre of all the responses. No fault on Zimmerman for the pursuit. No problem with Zimmerman claiming he had gotten out because he didn't know what street he was on - in a neighborhood he patrolled over and over and over and over.

I don't think it's "fine" if someone follows me to my house.

You know why I don't think that is? because it happened to me. Probably when I was not much older than Martin. There's a lot of harm. There's the psychological harm. There's concern over possible physical harm. There comes days of watching out of your window. Wondering about being followed home every night after that.

The fact that you excuse this, dismiss it so easily suggests to me that your response has more to do with aligning yourself with one, specific conclusion than a consideration of what might've happened.

Quote:
So the question is....who had the attitude and was probably cocky enough to start mouthing off and leading to a horrible situation?
finally, we arrive at the culmination of your argument - which is an argument. Don't hide behind the questions.

Don't couch your conclusions as if they are really questions.

We've been led to believe that the one mouthing off was Martin. He was the one looking suspicious. He was the one who started the "scuffle" over being asked a simple question by someone you think has the right to do so because he claimed to be the Neighborhood Watch. He was the one who didn't "just move on." He was the one who wasn't okay with being followed, who didn't just think "what harm is there in that?"

These aren't questions, really. There's nothing in your questions or your scenarios that suggest you consider that Zimmerman was 'cocky' enough to start mouthing off. Even the assumption that the "mouthing off" was what prompted the shooting is presumptive and selective.

Not once in reading your questions did it seem you were wondering if Zimmerman was at fault. They were all skewed one direction. Not once in considering your final question of who was "cocky enough to start mouthing off" did it seem you felt Zimmerman was capable.

It's just not convincing if your purpose here is really to "be enlightened" - I didn't see any of these with that purpose. Instead, it felt like - through leading questions - you were trying to enlighten us
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:55 PM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleTrvlingJim View Post
A couple of things. Why is it "stupid" to walk at night with or without a hoodie? There's nothing illegal about it, and it's a legitimate way to go out and buy snacks which was what he was doing. I've never heard of a neighborhood watch just following someone without identifying themselves. Either they phone it in to the police, or they identify themselves... just slowly following a guy is not typical NW behavior from what I know about them, so that does not seem to be a reasonable expectation.

Second, we don't really know what happened in the confrontation to determine whether Trayvon acted "stupidly" or not. His girlfriend was on the phone with him at the time and claimed he was running away from the person following him... but let's put that aside and say he did initiate a confrontation. It's a big leap to say, that initiating a confrontation with someone in a gated community is not merely "stupid" but lethally stupid. I'm not sure it's a reasonable expectation to be killed in such a situation.

Finally, even if it's a matter of them acting stupidly, they aren't necessarily equivocal. Only one person was armed in the situation, and that person outweighed Trayvon by a hundred pounds. I'm not sure how that person can claim to be in fear of their life. Again, I don't know all the facts, so there could be a circumstance where that is true, but it seems unlikely.

On the flip side, I vehemently disagree with some of the actions being taken like posting Zimmerman's address on twitter (it was the wrong person even)... Spike Lee participated in this, and that as well seems criminal to me as well.
Is this a surpising concept to you? I've seen people 100lbs and more get punished by the lesser weighing opponent many times. If someone knows how to fight and the other doesn't, it's quite easy to use someone's weight against them at their severe disadvantage....just sayin'
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:58 PM   #520
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Quote:
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Is this a surpising concept to you? I've seen people 100lbs and more get punished by the lesser weighing opponent many times. If someone knows how to fight and the other doesn't, it's quite easy to use someone's weight against them at their severe disadvantage....just sayin'
Yes, it's possible, but it's less likely. It's even less likely that Trayvon is so physically superior that Zimmerman was in imminent danger of being beaten to death by Martin's bare hands.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:59 PM   #521
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Is this a surpising concept to you? I've seen people 100lbs and more get punished by the lesser weighing opponent many times. If someone knows how to fight and the other doesn't, it's quite easy to use someone's weight against them at their severe disadvantage....just sayin'
That is definitely the exception and not the rule.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:00 PM   #522
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Is this true? I thought you had to have a legitimate fear for your own life. That's why it is relevant that Martin was not armed. And why it's relevant that Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 100 pounds.

By your logic, I can walk up to a black person in Florida, and call him a ****** and his girl a nappy-headed ho, and if he reaches back to deck me I can shoot him. I hardly think this true.
If he starts to beat your head into the cement, like is what's reported, yeah...you can shoot.

Let's not twist peoples words, and stick to what we've read to have happened.(edited)
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:04 PM   #523
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Yes, it's possible, but it's less likely. It's even less likely that Trayvon is so physically superior that Zimmerman was in imminent danger of being beaten to death by Martin's bare hands.
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That is definitely the exception and not the rule.
I grew up boxing, so maybe I've had different experiences with fights I've witnessed.

If we have one person 6'0, scrappy and 150 lbs and a 5'7 fat dude weighing in at 250 lbs and I knew the 6'0 lean guy could throw a punch, I'd bet my mortgage on him every time.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:06 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by CHI-TOWNSAINT View Post
and stick to what we believe to have happened.
you shouldn't say "we"

as for you, what do you believe and why?

And why should we take that for what actually happened and then comment accordingly?
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:07 PM   #525
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I grew up boxing, so maybe I've had different experiences with fights I've witnessed.

If we have one person 6'0, scrappy and 150 lbs and a 5'7 fat dude weighing in at 250 lbs and I knew the 6'0 lean guy could throw a punch, I'd bet my mortgage on him every time.
And I do Brazilian Jujitsu, an art which allows you to use your opponents weight against them. And I still feel the bigger guy has an advantage in most circumstances on the street.
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