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Old 04-02-2012, 04:13 PM   #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackngold4877 View Post
Ok, so let's say Fox News does this as well, and maybe they do I don't watch Fox News, but how is that at all relevant here?
To me, it is quite relevant.

I agree that a good segment of people made up their mind immediately and probably did so without much if any proof. I also agree many had an agenda for ratings, race, etc....

With that said, I also have seen PLENTY being Pro-Zimmerman in the same crazy way that the Pro-Martin people are being painted. Fox News and every right-wing site has made it their mission in this story to paint EVERYONE against Zimmerman as racist themselves as well as trying to claim that "liberalism" is out of control in todays world (whatever that means.

Fox News and right-wingers basically want to blame liberals or even Obama on just about everything....then play stupid when they are called out for it...then cry about how liberals are always crying about their own candidates.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:21 PM   #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
So through different forensic efforts, we've learned that Zimmerman looks to have suffered some degree of injuries, (though nobody disputes there was a struggle) but also, its very possible, he wasn't the one crying for help.
maybe a more open approach? although i dont have a huge grasp on the science of voice recognition, and challenges that would be faced by matching a recorded struggle to whatever sample they used, I have to imagine that it wouldnt be difficult to trot someone out on either side of this claim. the marks we can see, how bad they are we dont know, but it seems that would be less likely to be disputable between experts on the topic, other than severity. again, i dont know the science of either. i just found it interesting that the verbiage on the injuries was more up in the air than the voices which you reflected more confidence in...
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #888
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i just found it interesting that the verbiage on the injuries was more up in the air than the voices which you reflected more confidence in...
I thought I was being generous enough in allowing doubt.

One of the audio forensics experts called it a "reasonable scientific certainty".

Quote:
"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.
Quid pro quo, you seem to have latched on to more doubt about the accuracy of the audio forensics findings than the importance of the video forensics findings. Are you sure you don't have a stronger opinion about what happened than maybe you are letting on?
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:37 PM   #889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
So through different forensic efforts, we've learned that Zimmerman may have in fact suffered some injuries, (though nobody disputes there was a struggle) but also, in all likelihood, he wasn't the one crying for help.
Are you suggesting that Martin was calling for help while he was bashing Zimmerman's head into the concrete?
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:43 PM   #890
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Originally Posted by NYCsaint View Post
Id be curious to hear some takes on this question.....

What would it take for one of the people that are most skeptical of Zimmermans story to change their views at this point?


I know there are about a dozen different things that could happen that would be pretty damning for zimmerman (ballistics dont match the story, its proven he wasnt screaming for help, etc...) but on the flip side, at somepoint, you have to take a leap of judgement that the story zimmerman is telling is true. for those that are most upset about zimmerman being free, short of a crazy neighbor magically producing video of the incident out of thin air - what would it take for you to think he was not the one that is primarily in the wrong?


was just thinking about the ways this could play out and i see ways that could put the masses back against Zimmerman, but on the chance he isnt really in the wrong here (ie wasnt out hunting for kids, and in reality was getting assualted, scared for his life, didnt initiate, etc....still made mistakes, but its not heinous, basically his story is true).... i dont know what it would take for the angry masses not to descend on him if a grand jury didnt bring back charges.
Martin was armed and drew his weapon and/or made Zimmerman aware of his weapon before he attacked him;
Zimmerman apologized to Martin and started to return to his car when Martin attacked him;
There are some more scenarios.
But I think what is more likely is that if the facts back Zimmerman up to some extent then justice would be that he be charged with homicide where the intent is something along the lines of negligent or reckless homicide - whatever that is in Florida. And that is is most of the facts break Zimmerman's way.

But the Florida stand your ground law really will mean no justice in the sense most people think of the term.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:51 PM   #891
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Originally Posted by Denzien View Post
Are you suggesting that Martin was calling for help while he was bashing Zimmerman's head into the concrete?
How did you get there?

In fact, I would argue that's what we are being asked to believe happened to be able to accept Zimmerman's version of events. That he was attacked, overpowered, beaten to the point of thinking his life was in jeopardy...all while Trayvon Martin cried out for help.

Of course that's not what I believe happened. It doesn't make sense that Martin would simultaneously beat Zimmerman severely while crying out to draw attention to what he was doing.

You do realize that the existence of injuries to Zimmerman wouldn't prove that he was attacked by Martin, right? It would only prove that he suffered injuries.

It has been my belief that Trayvon Martin was the one crying for help and I have expressed doubts about Zimmerman's account. Nothing, so far, has changed that.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:52 PM   #892
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One thing I believe needs to be pointed out regarding the way this is treated in the media is that this case did not garner much attention at all until the family got some famous black people involved. And then those people began a certain PR campaign that some people are turned off by.
And no doubt Al Sharpton is not the dude that instills confidence in criminal accusations.
But - the attention is there - is it not? I am fairly confident that put in the shoes of the family I would do anything to try to bring justice to the man who killed my child. I wonder if some of these people who are criticizing what the Sharptons and Jacksons are doing are being honest with themselves.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:56 PM   #893
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Originally Posted by AppleSaint View Post
To me, it is quite relevant.

I agree that a good segment of people made up their mind immediately and probably did so without much if any proof. I also agree many had an agenda for ratings, race, etc....

With that said, I also have seen PLENTY being Pro-Zimmerman in the same crazy way that the Pro-Martin people are being painted. Fox News and every right-wing site has made it their mission in this story to paint EVERYONE against Zimmerman as racist themselves as well as trying to claim that "liberalism" is out of control in todays world (whatever that means.

Fox News and right-wingers basically want to blame liberals or even Obama on just about everything....then play stupid when they are called out for it...then cry about how liberals are always crying about their own candidates.
Ok.. what does that have to do with NBC editing audio to mold the story that they want to portray as opposed to just reporting the facts. Oh Fox does it too? Good, they're both scumbags, that isn't a defense and this is something we learn as children when our parents say "well if so and so jumped off (insert local bridge) would you do it too?" I just don't see how every single person isn't appalled at NBC for doing this, it transcends politics and political affiliation and it is quite frankly a despicable act. Are we so blinded by our political affiliations at this point that something as simple as reporting the truth is optional as long as the people doing the lying agree with us?
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:42 PM   #894
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I just don't see how every single person isn't appalled at NBC for doing this, it transcends politics and political affiliation and it is quite frankly a despicable act.
Fair enough but then I don't see how anybody can watch that Hannity piece, or be familiar with the Twitchy incident, and think NBC deserves to be singled out.

Your position seems to be that what NBC did was so uniquely horrible. It's not, unfortunately; not even in the coverage of this story.

To their credit, they've announced they will open an investigation into the way they have handled this story. Might be a dog and pony show but before we get too cynical on that front, do we think any of the other networks, including FOX, will be joining them in that sort of self-review? {fingers tapping}

And just in case...NBC was absolutely wrong to edit the 911 call the way they did, whether it was intentional or from being sloppy. Now, feel free to explain to me how Hannity cherry-picking soundbites from Sharpton, Waters, Frederica Wilson, the Black Panthers, etc., -- to try and make some larger indictment of the way the story has been framed and covered (by others!) -- isn't the same kind of slanted presentation intended to drive an emotional response? Obviously, the things that Hannity cherry-picked aren't any more accurate in what they pretend to convey than what NBC ran. Malkin was one of many to jump on the "Trayvon as thug" storyline -- you know, if the issue is really about unfair media portrayals and character assassination. Is it?

It just seems that if anybody really wants to harp on media coverage in this, it's wrong to limit it to one incident, or selected targets. That seems an awfully biased and unfair way to try and make a point about media bias and unfairness.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:04 PM   #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
Agreed.

I think the following video is....quite something, in its own right, too.
If anyone who thinks "the media tried and convicted Zimmerman" can watch that clip and doesn't say the same thing for that Hannity clip then they're just as biased as those they are railing against. It's kind of funny watching someone get worked up about presenting non-facts as part of the story (reporting on the NBC edit which was unfathomable), and then turning around 20 seconds later and doing the same (stating allegations of Zimmerman's story as fact, and then presenting one witness story as fact and ignoring the other witnesses accounts). Brent Bozell sounds reasonable in the beginning (calling out NBC's edit and stating "but the point is we don't know" what happened) but then says this is Tawanna Brawley moment (where allegations were unproven) as if he now knows what happened and what the outcome will be.

It's sad that this has basically become a political thing with the usual suspects lining up on their usual sides instead of just a search for truth and justice. Anything to manufacture outrage and ratings, I guess...
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:09 PM   #896
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Fair enough but then I don't see how anybody can watch that Hannity piece, or be familiar with the Twitchy incident, and think NBC deserves to be singled out.
I'm not singling them out, this is something they did.

Quote:
Your position seems to be that what NBC did was so uniquely horrible.
No it isn't, I said they're both scumbags

Quote:
It's not, unfortunately; not even in the coverage of this story.
I'm jumping on this story late, admittedly. I don't watch Fox so I dont know what their coverage of it is like, as Ive already said. I know of this story from hearing it on the radio this morning then reading about it online. My reaction is solely based on people thinking because Fox does it it's ok if NBC does it. both are wrong.



Quote:
To their credit, they've announced they will open an investigation into the way they have handled this story. Might be a dog and pony show but before we get too cynical on that front, do we think any of the other networks, including FOX, will be joining them in that sort of self-review? {fingers tapping}
Again this isn't about Fox. If they do things like this they're scumbags as well and should be held accountable.

Quote:
And just in case...NBC was absolutely wrong to edit the 911 call the way they did, whether it was intentional or from being sloppy.
I'd love to believe it was just being sloppy

Quote:
Now, feel free to explain to me how Hannity cherry-picking soundbites from Sharpton, Waters, Frederica Wilson, the Black Panthers, etc., -- to try and make some larger indictment of the way the story has been framed and covered (by others!) -- isn't the same kind of slanted presentation intended to drive an emotional response? Obviously, the things that Hannity cherry-picked aren't any more accurate in what they pretend to convey than what NBC ran. Malkin was one of many to jump on the "Trayvon as thug" storyline -- you know, if the issue is really about unfair media portrayals and character assassination. Is it?
I'd have to hear them to say if they are of equal weight. the NBC edit changes the entire thing. No one that hears that clip will think that race wasn't the primary motivation and being labeled a racist is something that never goes away in this world. It's dangerous to do that. Again I don't know what Fox has been like. My comment was specific to NBC and not the least bit driven by a partisan hack point of view. Everyone that works at Fox can jump off a bridge for all I care.

Quote:
It just seems that if anybody really wants to harp on media coverage in this, it's wrong to limit it to one incident, or selected targets. That seems an awfully biased and unfair way to try and make a point about media bias and unfairness.
Not really, if Fox did this exact thing I'd call them out too. Again I havent really been following the story that closely but you just cant edit the 911 tape, that's crazy. I guess I'm just of the opinion that if they'll do it once they'll do it to anyone and god forbid you or I have a family member or friend in a position where they are being unjustly portrayed to the world like that. I have no idea if the guy is a racist or not and we probably never will really know but he has a right to have the facts portrayed correctly, as we all do regardless of the network. Sorry but ignoring what NBC did here because FOX does shady things is the wrong approach.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:10 PM   #897
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If anyone who thinks "the media tried and convicted Zimmerman" can watch that clip and doesn't say the same thing for that Hannity clip then they're just as biased as those they are railing against. It's kind of funny watching someone get worked up about presenting non-facts as part of the story (reporting on the NBC edit which was unfathomable), and then turning around 20 seconds later and doing the same (stating allegations of Zimmerman's story as fact, and then presenting one witness story as fact and ignoring the other witnesses accounts). Brent Bozell sounds reasonable in the beginning (calling out NBC's edit and stating "but the point is we don't know" what happened) but then says this is Tawanna Brawley moment (where allegations were unproven) as if he now knows what happened and what the outcome will be.

It's sad that this has basically become a political thing with the usual suspects lining up on their usual sides instead of just a search for truth and justice. Anything to manufacture outrage and ratings, I guess...
This.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:18 PM   #898
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You do realize that the existence of injuries to Zimmerman wouldn't prove that he was attacked by Martin, right? It would only prove that he suffered injuries.

It has been my belief that Trayvon Martin was the one crying for help and I have expressed doubts about Zimmerman's account. Nothing, so far, has changed that.

Of course. And you do realize that Martin calling out for help (should it be proven by, perhaps, analyzing the voice versus a recording of him. Unless I missed the news that someone did this?) equally doesn't prove that he was not assaulting Zimmerman - in self defense or otherwise.

This is the point I was trying to make - you are trying to discount evidence that seems to indicate that Zimmerman was injured in the incident because it doesn't fit your belief of what happened, but are trying to say that an audio recording of someone in distress with no video is proof of Zimmerman lying.


So if Martin was calling for help, but only has a gunshot as an injury, why was he calling for help? The most plausible explaination might be that Zimmerman was attempting to detain Martin to fit this line of thought. So how then do we explain Zimmerman's injuries? Did Martin fight back in a bid for freedom, and get shot for it?

If this is what happened, I still come back to the idea that Martin had ample time to get back to his apartment but somehow decided not to.


FWIW, I don't believe many of the details of the Zimmerman account either - especially the claim that Martin said something like,"You're going to die tonight!" Talk about unrealistic. Not 100% beyond the realm of possibility...but it sounds like a cheezy 'B' movie. Just doesn't sound right.

I mentioned Rashomon in an earlier post. Four accounts of one crime, all of them had some elements of truth mixed with lies, exaggeration or misperception. I have a hard time believing there are any innocent parties in all of this - an unfortunate mixture of strong personalities.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:25 PM   #899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackngold4877 View Post
This.
We must not be that far off then.

Understand, I'm not defending NBC and I agree with you, there's no excuse for that kind of editorializing. It's terribly irresponsible.

My point speaks to something else, I guess, and something I perceive you to be overlooking. There is an undercurrent building that seeks to focus on how the media has covered this story. In that case, I'm arguing that the NBC incident doesn't stand alone. I've cited some other media transgressions, for reference. If the scrutiny isn't going to be collective and broad, then the purpose seems to be something other than thoughtful analysis of how the media has handled the story. I've suggested it's a diversion, in that case.

The criticism of the media, when examined and presented in such a selective way, becomes nothing more than a vehicle for the expression of the partisanship you are saying you don't like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackngold4877 View Post
What I was getting at also is that we've created a culture in this country that is so partisan that everything is an "us vs them" "all or nothing" type of thing and in my opinion nothing is that black or white.
That's what I'm getting at too.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:35 PM   #900
FullMonte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denzien View Post
Of course. And you do realize that Martin calling out for help (should it be proven by, perhaps, analyzing the voice versus a recording of him. Unless I missed the news that someone did this?) equally doesn't prove that he was not assaulting Zimmerman - in self defense or otherwise.
That's true, it doesn't.

Quote:
This is the point I was trying to make - you are trying to discount evidence that seems to indicate that Zimmerman was injured in the incident because it doesn't fit your belief of what happened, but are trying to say that an audio recording of someone in distress with no video is proof of Zimmerman lying.
And, to turn this around, you can't discount the other evidence either. If Martin is screaming for help, and we go with the theory that he was attacking Zimmerman, either in self-defense or otherwise, that means that we are leaning towards believing Zimmerman's account of what happened. Except that Zimmerman's account includes the fact that while Martin was attacking him, Zimmerman was yelling for help. So, that means that we are going to believe Zimmerman got everything right *EXCEPT* who was yelling for help?


Quote:
So if Martin was calling for help, but only has a gunshot as an injury, why was he calling for help?
I'm going to assume that you haven't heard the tape? If so, you'd know that whoever was screaming for help stopped screaming the instant the gun fired.

Quote:
The most plausible explaination might be that Zimmerman was attempting to detain Martin to fit this line of thought. So how then do we explain Zimmerman's injuries? Did Martin fight back in a bid for freedom, and get shot for it?
And again, if we go with that theory, that Zimmerman was attempting to detain Martin, and Martin fought back, then it blows a hole in Zimmerman's account of what happened. But, my gut tells me that is the most likely scenario. Or, that it happened in a similar fashion to Zimmerman's story, only slightly different...Such as Zimmerman approached Martin and asked him what he was doing, and then went for his phone to call the cops. Martin, thinking Zimmerman was going for the gun on his waist immediately attacked Zimmerman to stop him from getting the gun and began calling for help.

Quote:
If this is what happened, I still come back to the idea that Martin had ample time to get back to his apartment but somehow decided not to.
Perhaps. But, I'm wondering if he got disoriented in a fairly new neighborhood in the dark, while running away from what he percieved as a threat.

Quote:
FWIW, I don't believe many of the details of the Zimmerman account either - especially the claim that Martin said something like,"You're going to die tonight!" Talk about unrealistic. Not 100% beyond the realm of possibility...but it sounds like a cheezy 'B' movie. Just doesn't sound right.
I'm right there with you on that...just like I've said before...I can't see how Martin was so afraid of Zimmerman that he ran from him, and then once he saw Zimmerman turn around and walk back to his car, suddenly Martin is a tough guy who confronts Zimmerman face to face. Common sense tells me that Martin would have either remained hidden until Zimmerman left, or he would have attacked Zimmerman from behind if his intent was to harm Zimmerman.
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