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Old 03-12-2012, 08:36 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
Actually you could not be more wrong. Every citizen has the right/authority to stop , detain and bring charges against someone they see committing a Crime. In some instance a witness can be held criminally and civilly liable if they don't act.
Lies! Well maybe not a lie, but you are stretching it. There would have to be some duty imposed because of the person's position, such as when a principal of a school has a duty to report abuse. But the average guy walking down the street is not under a duty to stop, detain or bring charges against some random guy they see committing a crime.

As a law enforcement officer you should feel some responsibility not to scare the good folks of EEland into thinking they might have to pop a cap in someone in order to stay on the right side of the law.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:39 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinj View Post
I've been part of neighborhood watch groups in New Orleans and Dallas and each city had the cops come and tell us the exact opposite of the type of stuff you're saying in this thread, just sayin'. They told us, don't carry guns, don't confront suspicious people, just call 911, give a description, give a plate #, and let the cops come handle it. I'm pretty sure the cops training us knew what they were talking about. Not sure about you.
I agree with what the officer told you 100%. We would never condone sending the avg citizen out to enforce the law. But on the same note the lawmakers also say you have the right to defend and protect yourself and your property. You may think I'm wrong but the laws prove what im saying.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:48 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flipx99 View Post
Lies! Well maybe not a lie, but you are stretching it. There would have to be some duty imposed because of the person's position, such as when a principal of a school has a duty to report abuse. But the average guy walking down the street is not under a duty to stop, detain or bring charges against some random guy they see committing a crime.

As a law enforcement officer you should feel some responsibility not to scare the good folks of EEland into thinking they might have to pop a cap in someone in order to stay on the right side of the law.
You can call it stretching the truth. But stand by and do nothing when a friend that your with robs a bank, commits a murder, rapes a person. Do nothing , I just hope you have a good lawyer. People go to jail for these things often. Walk down the street with a friend sometime during that walk he breaks into a house. You do nothing and 2 mins later he come out with jewelry. Don't think you will not be arrested if its found out you were there.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:57 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
You can call it stretching the truth. But stand by and do nothing when a friend that your with robs a bank, commits a murder, rapes a person. Do nothing , I just hope you have a good lawyer. People go to jail for these things often. Walk down the street with a friend sometime during that walk he breaks into a house. You do nothing and 2 mins later he come out with jewelry. Don't think you will not be arrested if its found out you were there.
Well, under those facts I think all you are really saying is that I would be mistakenly arrested for being a participant in the crime itself.

That's different than what you were suggesting earlier, that I would be guilty of being a bystander who did nothing.
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:15 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flipx99 View Post
Well, under those facts I think all you are really saying is that I would be mistakenly arrested for being a participant in the crime itself.

That's different than what you were suggesting earlier, that I would be guilty of being a bystander who did nothing.
I'll explain it more in detail tomorrow, I have p.o.s.t. this week so I'm heading to bed.
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:42 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
Actually you could not be more wrong. Every citizen has the right/authority to stop , detain and bring charges against someone they see committing a Crime. In some instance a witness can be held criminally and civilly liable if they don't act.

You just can't drop it, can you? A citizen always has the right to bring charges, however that right does not translate into citizen's arrest. Instead of throwing these vague statments out there, why don't you provide documentation to back up you assertions? If what you say is law, then there has to be some statute you can link that will state as such. Perhaps some case law? A Supreme Court decision?

The only requirement is to report. Failure to report a crime when you have knowledge of the crime AND the means/ability to report it can make you complicit. Being complicit does not necessarily make you liable either civilly or criminally. There is no requirement to act, unless you are subject to certain codes relating to off duty medical professionals and the like.


To bring this full circle and back on topic, let's examine the requirements for citizen's arrest in relation to the known facts of the case in the OP. Was the teen breaking a law? Was he in the commission of a felony? Was he committing a "breach of peace?" None of that is indicated by the facts released, therefore Zimmerman was not on sound legal footing when he attempted to detain the teen. According to statute, he now has left himself open to civil and criminal prosecution, therefore he should have been arrested. End of story.

Calling police is better than citizen's arrest | The Augusta Chronicle

Georgia law gives you permission to detain someone who breaks the law -- even if you didn't see it happen.

But actually performing a citizen's arrest opens up a world of legal and criminal liability, not to mention the possibility of serious injury.

In separate incidents this year, a suspected car thief and a citizen were shot when someone interrupted an alleged crime.

Both highlight the physical risks of taking action before police arrive, but what often goes unrecognized is the possibility of an arrest for false imprisonment or a civil lawsuit.


Citizen's Arrest - FindLaw


In certain situations, private individuals have the power to make an arrest without a warrant. These types of arrests, known as citizens arrests, occur when ordinary people either detain criminals themselves or direct police officers to detain a criminal.

Citizens arrests are subject to fewer constitutional requirements than an arrest by law enforcement officers, but citizens arrests still have rules that govern them. Failure to abide by these rules can result in civil and criminal liability for the arresting individual.

Felonies

A person can arrest someone that they reasonably suspect of committing a felony, even if the felony didnt occur in the presence of the individual making the arrest. As long as a felony was actually committed and the individual making the arrest knew of the crime, a reasonable suspicion about the identity of the perpetrator will justify their arrest.

The felony must have actually occurred before an individual can make a citizens arrest. Even if a person reasonably believes that a felony has occurred, if the crime did not in fact happen, the person making the arrest could become civilly and criminally liable.

Breaches of the Peace

In general, people cant use citizens arrests for misdemeanors unless the misdemeanor involves a breach of the peace. Even in these circumstances, however, individuals can only make arrests when they have personally witnessed the criminal behavior and the breach has just occurred or there is a strong likelihood that the breach will continue.


Explain to me where you see a duty of an ordinary citizen to detain someone if they witness commission of a felony.
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:33 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
You can call it stretching the truth. But stand by and do nothing when a friend that your with robs a bank, commits a murder, rapes a person. Do nothing , I just hope you have a good lawyer. People go to jail for these things often. Walk down the street with a friend sometime during that walk he breaks into a house. You do nothing and 2 mins later he come out with jewelry. Don't think you will not be arrested if its found out you were there.
I'm not going to argue with you because you seem very committed in proving your point, even though you are dead wrong on most accounts. I have to say, however, it is very uncomforting to have a currently employed law enforcement officer that is so ignorant of the law he's charged to enforce. And despite this ignorance, the law still empowers this same officer with the authority to actually arrest American Citizens.

Your analysis on the non-acting friend may be the way your department handles business but its not correct. The friend who is merely present is not guilty of the crime his friend committed unless he aided in the crime in some way or had a LEGAL DUTY to act, not a moral duty but a legal duty to act. Legal duties arise under a contract, parental-child relationships, husband-wife relationships or situations where the non-actor created the perilous situation. There is no statutory/legal duty imposed on friend-friend relationships.

Here, none of these situations you mentioned created a legal duty for the non-acting friend. Yes morally you would want the friend to step up and stop the other but legally he/she is not required to. So, no matter how bad you may want to arrest the friend under your misunderstanding of the law, you should not because you would violate the very law you were sworn to uphold.

Below I have included some basic tenants of Crim law. You need to brush up on them so you don't go around falsely arresting American Citizens.

Criminal Law: for an individual to be guilty of a crime there must be an actus reus and a mens reus (except for specific intent crimes like statutory rape):

1. "Actus Reus"
a) a voluntary-affirmative act causing a criminally proscribed result
b) an omission-failure to act WHERE THERE IS A LEGAL DUTY TO ACT
i. imposed by statue
ii. contract
iii. special relationship (Parent/Child or Husband Wife) NOT Friend
iiii. failing to aid after causing victims condition
***A bad thought standing alone or a failure to act where there is no legal duty to act will not suffice.

2. "Mens Reus": Legally proscribed guilty mind... That includes having the intent to commit the crime, the intent to commit an action that resulted in a crime or committing an act that is reckless or negligent and that recklessness or negligence results in a crime.

By no means should you stop here. Grab your police code of conduct and the criminal statues for your jurisdiction AND READ THEM.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:32 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
How do you look the parents in the eyes and say I'm sorry I arrested the perp to soon and he got off because we didnt have enough evidence.
That is an issue of your incompetence and not in any way relevant to what happened here .
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:41 AM   #99
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Orlando Watch Shooting Probe Reveals Questionable Police Conduct

By MATT GUTMAN (@mattgutmanABC) and SENI TIENABESO

ORLANDO, Fla., March 13, 2012

...

Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall.

A dispatcher told him to wait for a police cruiser, and not leave his vehicle.

...

But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

Neighborhood Watch Shooting of Trayvon Martin: Probe Reveals 'Questionable Police Conduct' - ABC News
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:59 AM   #100
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It is a dang shame that this Zimmerman guy has not been arrested and charged with murder. Justice will not be served until he is convicted of cold-blooded murder.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:33 PM   #101
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The more that comes out, the more outrageous this seems. Hopefully justice prevails.

Quote:
Witness: Sanford police "Blew us off" in teen slaying

Updated: 5:58 p.m. Wednesday, March 14, 2012 | Posted: 4:40 p.m. Wednesday, March 14, 2012

SANFORD, Fla. —
...

However, witness Mary Cutcher said she knew the truth. Cutcher said police only took a two or three sentence statement from her, but it took about 30 minutes to tell WFTV the story.

"The cries stopped as soon as the gun went off, so I know it was the little boy," Cutcher said.

...

Cutcher said she believes whatever confrontation there was, it ended before they got to her backyard.

She also said she believes Zimmerman continued to chase Martin as he tried to get home.


Witness: Sanford police "Blew us off" in teen slaying | www.wftv.com
Also commentary from the station's legal expert regarding 'use of force'.

Quote:
Sanford police pointed to a state statute for not making an immediate rest, and they sent WFTV a copy of the law entitled, "Justifiable Use of Force."

However, WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer reviewed the statute and said that if Zimmerman was told by 911 to not confront Martin and did anyway, the statute is not on his side.

"The use of deadly force in this case was unlawful and a valid arrest could have been made," Sheaffer said.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:58 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Brees View Post
So the Da's and the police dont have to prove anything!



Yes because a homicide is any un-natural death. Murder is a homicide, but homicide is not always murder. You are correct, this is a homicide but until there is a trial and conviction it may not be a murder.


Actually it is determined by the police. depending on the way the system is set up. Here in Ga. the police make the charge not the DA. However the DA has the authority to change the charge.


Correct, police don't pick and choose how to interpret the law. We interpret the law. Then we gather the evidence, complete the investigation, make the arrest and present those facts to the judge and jury.


Homicide (Latin: homicidium, Latin: **** human being + Latin: caedere to cut, kill) refers to the act of a human killing another human

Criminal Charges: How Cases Get Started | Nolo.com


How does a criminal case get started? Usually with a police arrest report. The prosecutor then decides what criminal charges to file, if any. The case can then go to a grand jury for a criminal indictment or to a preliminary hearing where a judge decides if there is enough evidence to proceed. Here's how this all works.
Arrest Reports and Criminal Charges

After an arrest, the arrest report is sent to a prosecutor, whose job it is to initiate and prosecute criminal cases. Arrest reports summarize the events leading up to arrests and provide numerous other details, such as dates, time, location, and weather conditions of the crime, and witnesses' names and addresses, if that information is available.

The prosecutor will either:
•decide that the case should be charged (as a felony or a misdemeanor), and file a complaint with the trial court
•decide that the case should be charged as a felony and bring evidence before citizens serving as grand jurors, who will decide what charges, if any, to file, or
•decide that the matter should not be pursued.




Police | Define Police at Dictionary.com

po·lice
   [puh-lees] Show IPA noun, verb, -liced, -lic·ing.

noun
1.
Also called police force. an organized civil force for maintaining order, preventing and detecting crime, and enforcing the laws.

2.
( used with a plural verb ) members of such a force: Several police are patrolling the neighborhood.

3.
the regulation and control of a community, especially for the maintenance of public order, safety, health, morals, etc.

4.
the department of the government concerned with this, especially with the maintenance of order.

5.
any body of people officially maintained or employed to keep order, enforce regulations, etc




Look, I'm normally a live and let live kind of guy, but I really think you should consider another line of work. I have a degree in Criminology with minors in Psychology, Sociology and Anthropology. I chose a different career path not long after I graduated because of people like you. You are either a cop because you love the job, or you love the gun and badge. Turned out I couldn't work in an environment where most people were in it for the gun and badge.
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:59 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blodaksen View Post
Homicide (Latin: homicidium, Latin: **** human being + Latin: caedere to cut, kill) refers to the act of a human killing another human

Criminal Charges: How Cases Get Started | Nolo.com


How does a criminal case get started? Usually with a police arrest report. The prosecutor then decides what criminal charges to file, if any. The case can then go to a grand jury for a criminal indictment or to a preliminary hearing where a judge decides if there is enough evidence to proceed. Here's how this all works.
Arrest Reports and Criminal Charges

After an arrest, the arrest report is sent to a prosecutor, whose job it is to initiate and prosecute criminal cases. Arrest reports summarize the events leading up to arrests and provide numerous other details, such as dates, time, location, and weather conditions of the crime, and witnesses' names and addresses, if that information is available.

The prosecutor will either:
•decide that the case should be charged (as a felony or a misdemeanor), and file a complaint with the trial court
•decide that the case should be charged as a felony and bring evidence before citizens serving as grand jurors, who will decide what charges, if any, to file, or
•decide that the matter should not be pursued.




Police | Define Police at Dictionary.com

po·lice
   [puh-lees] Show IPA noun, verb, -liced, -lic·ing.

noun
1.
Also called police force. an organized civil force for maintaining order, preventing and detecting crime, and enforcing the laws.

2.
( used with a plural verb ) members of such a force: Several police are patrolling the neighborhood.

3.
the regulation and control of a community, especially for the maintenance of public order, safety, health, morals, etc.

4.
the department of the government concerned with this, especially with the maintenance of order.

5.
any body of people officially maintained or employed to keep order, enforce regulations, etc




Look, I'm normally a live and let live kind of guy, but I really think you should consider another line of work. I have a degree in Criminology with minors in Psychology, Sociology and Anthropology. I chose a different career path not long after I graduated because of people like you. You are either a cop because you love the job, or you love the gun and badge. Turned out I couldn't work in an environment where most people were in it for the gun and badge.
You have no clue. I mean really you dont. The officer responds to the scene. lets say its a burglary in progress. He takes a suspect into custody inside the home. He collects the evidence, writes the reports , logs in the evidence, Makes the charge against the suspect , and places the suspect in jail. Now where you at it might be different but here the office decides what to charge the suspect with. Now, once the Da gets the case he can change the charge to a higher or lesser charge. Its not a difficult or hard process like your making it out to be.

The prosecutor then decides what criminal charges to file This statement of yours is not correct in the since your trying to describe. Again the officer brings the charge. Anyone, thats ever had any dealing with the system knows this to be true because the suspect is broght in front of a judge and the charges are explained to him and probable cause is established at that time. The da has not seen the first shred of paper on the case at that time.

I do not know where your getting your misguided facts but they are wrong. Now I also realize that everystate does things differently. In some areas , none ive ever seen, the officer does contact a represenitive of the da's office and goes over the case prior to making the arrest. No one i know including myself calls the Da's office and lets them make the charge. Those attorney's have to much to do Like taking cases to trial , which is what they do.

Now you say you worked in law enforcement, are you telling me when you arrested someone you didnt charge them.

Also in prior post about persons having the right to detain someone if they see them committ a crime you disagreed with me. You worked in law enforcement and you disagree with that. Most shoplifters are detained by store employees. They have no police training, or special powers that other citizens dont have.

Also If you worked in law enforcement you know that people are arrested every day for a crime they did not actively take part in. such as 3 guys walking down the street, 2 burglarize a home, 1 stays outside. Once the burglary is over all 3 continue down the street to be picked up and arrested. A witness identifies all 3 and tells how all 3 took part in the crime. If you worked in law enforcement you know the guy that didnt go in the home is also guilty of that burglary. Here is ga its called conspiracy to committ said crime, in the case its burglary.
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Old 03-15-2012, 08:25 AM   #104
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I'd really like to see Det Brees and the others that supported the police in this case respond to the latest allegations of misconduct and wrongdoing.

I for one am not surprised by these allegations. This case stunk to high heaven from the very beginning, reaching all the way over here. I had a Nigerian friend come up to me the other day wanting to talk about it.

It's always interesting how people like Det Brees lets their bias get in the way of their sense of smell.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:39 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob8785 View Post
I'd really like to see Det Brees and the others that supported the police in this case respond to the latest allegations of misconduct and wrongdoing.

I for one am not surprised by these allegations. This case stunk to high heaven from the very beginning, reaching all the way over here. I had a Nigerian friend come up to me the other day wanting to talk about it.

It's always interesting how people like Det Brees lets their bias get in the way of their sense of smell.
Oh yeah, we are the only side that does that. The rest of the population never just assumes the police are wrong...
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