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Old 09-20-2017, 09:25 AM   #61
JimEverett
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Originally Posted by samiam5211 View Post
Yes
Erich Honecker would have loved you.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by JimEverett View Post
If the government goes to a secret court to do so - yes.

If they go to open court (even if the warrant is sealed for a time) - no
Is this similar to questioning the Mexican judge's ability because of his heritage?

What you are saying is that we need to allow ALL our national secrets be brought into the public eye or you're suggesting that our national security apparatus cannot be trusted. That isn't realistic.

Quite frankly, this tactic of yours is a ploy to muddy the waters. You don't trust obama but more freely trust someone with an R? Your parsing of my mob boss scenario is inconsequential. Reduce it to my basic premise and it's the same. You are doing what Trump did with the Mexican judge.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:34 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by JimEverett View Post
Erich Honecker would have loved you.

You apparently are more troubled by the fact that our government is investigating potentially criminal activity of people involved with a political campaign, than you are the fact that people involved with a political campaign were involved in criminal activity.

You are basically making the "witch hunt" claim. Which causes us to write you off as a partisan hack.

This is not the case to use as an example for your slippery slope argument.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:37 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UriUT View Post
Is this similar to questioning the Mexican judge's ability because of his heritage?

What you are saying is that we need to allow ALL our national secrets be brought into the public eye or you're suggesting that our national security apparatus cannot be trusted. That isn't realistic.

Quite frankly, this tactic of yours is a ploy to muddy the waters. You don't trust obama but more freely trust someone with an R? Your parsing of my mob boss scenario is inconsequential. Reduce it to my basic premise and it's the same. You are doing what Trump did with the Mexican judge.
of course.

obfuscate to the point that the original premise is lost...then pick up argument some place else.

i just pointed out the 90 day rule.

Warrant is DEAD after 90 days if no evidence was found.

If evidence is found, warrant gets another 90 days.

Its pretty simple actually.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:38 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samiam5211 View Post
You apparently are more troubled by the fact that our government is investigating potentially criminal activity of people involved with a political campaign, than you are the fact that people involved with a political campaign were involved in criminal activity.
What? FISA warrants are not conducted for criminal matters. FISA Court is used for intelligence matters. I have no problem with the criminal investigation.
That is uninformed, and combined with your inability to even see a potential problem with all this strikes me as being incredibly political on the issue.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:39 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by efil4stnias View Post
of course.

obfuscate to the point that the original premise is lost...then pick up argument some place else.

i just pointed out the 90 day rule.

Warrant is DEAD after 90 days if no evidence was found.

If evidence is found, warrant gets another 90 days.

Its pretty simple actually.
tell me how I am obfuscating the original premise.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:40 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEverett View Post
What? FISA warrants are not conducted for criminal matters. FISA Court is used for intelligence matters. I have no problem with the criminal investigation.
That is uninformed, and combined with your inability to even see a potential problem with all this strikes me as being incredibly political on the issue.

Oh you got me. My entire point has been invalidated. Captain Semantics wins again.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:41 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samiam5211 View Post
Oh you got me. My entire point has been invalidated. Captain Semantics wins again.
yeah - play the semantics game when the distinction is clearly of monumental importance.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:43 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by JimEverett View Post
yeah - play the semantics game when the distinction is clearly of monumental importance.

It is irrelevant in the context of what we were talking about.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:46 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by samiam5211 View Post
It is irrelevant in the context of what we were talking about.
Can you explain how it is irrelevant?

My whole point is the troubling use of the secret FISA court - not an open court.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:53 AM   #71
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Can you explain how it is irrelevant?

My whole point is the troubling use of the secret FISA court - not an open court.

I was making the point that you are more concerned about the court investigating someone who worked for a political campaign than the fact that someone who was under investigation was hired to work for a political campaign.

Should people who work for a political campaign be immune from investigation?

My use of the word criminal in that specific post was irrelevant to that point.

You are implying that this investigation is political. You are making the "witch hunt" claim combined with a slippery slope argument about our courts being abused for political purposes.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:04 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by samiam5211 View Post
I was making the point that you are more concerned about the court investigating someone who worked for a political campaign than the fact that someone who was under investigation was hired to work for a political campaign.

Should people who work for a political campaign be immune from investigation?

My use of the word criminal in that specific post was irrelevant to that point.

You are implying that this investigation is political. You are making the "witch hunt" claim combined with a slippery slope argument about our courts being abused for political purposes.
That is not accurate then. Because nowhere have I made the claim that I am concerned with "a court" investigating someone who worked for a political campaign. And surely you are not suggesting that the Trump campaign should have known that Manafort was being investigated when they hired him.

"Criminal" is relevant because I have consistently stated, I think, that getting a warrant in open court - where accused have rights - would be appropriate. the problem is the FISA Court - the secret court.

And as far as your overall point, I can just as easily make the claim that you are acting as a political hack for your seemingly complete lack of concern over the government's use of a secret court to spy on members of an opposition party campaign.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:23 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by JimEverett View Post
And as far as your overall point, I can just as easily make the claim that you are acting as a political hack for your seemingly complete lack of concern over the government's use of a secret court to spy on members of an opposition party campaign.

I am absolutely a political hack. Trump could cure cancer tomorrow, and I would still want to see him removed from office.

The difference is that I will admit it.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:47 AM   #74
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tell me how I am obfuscating the original premise.
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I think its bad enough that surveillance via a secret court was carried out on someone that close to an opposition campaign, much more so if they were actively a part of the opposition campaign.
The original premise was Manafort was a "foreign agent". ( which has now been proven true )

Not that he was close or part of opposition campaign ( opposing who exactly ???? ) Because im almost CERTAIN Pres Obama cannot order, carry out or request a FISA warrant, right?

so early on you tossed in "opposition campaign" when this has nothing to do with the "opposition" stance you so desperately are seeking.

He was the point man for the GOP nominee for POTUS. How you are perfectly ok with him having this web of ties to Russia, what is known, and what continues to develop is beyond me.

if you have an issue with FISA in and of itself, start another thread.

This aint the place for it.

that !@## GOP line must be true- "its ok if WE do it" sheesh.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:50 AM   #75
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And as far as your overall point, I can just as easily make the claim that you are acting as a political hack for your seemingly complete lack of concern over the government's use of a secret court to spy on members of an opposition party campaign.
Again, you just keep repeating unfounded accusations without ever giving any evidence to support them other than telling others that they are the problem if they don't think "it looks bad" from a political standpoint.

Was it also the (assumedly Democrat) government's intent to destroy Clinton's campaign on the days leading up to the election (Oct. 28th) when Comey sent a letter to Congress about the existence of new emails pertinent to the investigation? Because though I don't think it had an enormous impact (arguably), it most certainly negatively effected Clinton's chances to some degree. How in the world could this glitch have occurred if the campaign in power had ultimate oversight?
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