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Old 09-29-2017, 08:31 AM   #31
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Here it is appropriate to talk about freedom of expression and the 1st Amendment.

Sitting or kneeling peacefully is not disruptive - anyone being honest knows that.
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Old 09-29-2017, 08:46 AM   #32
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Schools should not force the students to recite the pledge or stand for the anthem. That is not the school's right to decide that for a student.

However, at the same time, there is nothing against changing how you do the anthem at the school. Instead of in each class, what you do is you start each school day in the gym, with the national anthem. Any child who wishes not to participate in the anthem will be allowed to sit in the classroom while this is happening. Then serve refreshments in the gym before going to class and joining those who did not with to participate.

There you go, everyone wins!
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Old 09-29-2017, 08:48 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by JLaneSaints View Post
Schools should not force the students to recite the pledge or stand for the anthem. That is not the school's right to decide that for a student.

However, at the same time, there is nothing against changing how you do the anthem at the school. Instead of in each class, what you do is you start each school day in the gym, with the national anthem. Any child who wishes not to participate in the anthem will be allowed to sit in the classroom while this is happening. Then serve refreshments in the gym before going to class and joining those who did not with to participate.

There you go, everyone wins!

I would be against giving children who participate a reward (refreshments) and denying those who choose not to participate that same reward. Not sure what the purpose of the refreshments would even be in this situation.

I am not even sure it would be legal to do it this way.
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Old 09-29-2017, 08:50 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by DaveinCoalinga View Post
I have taught 21 years. First grade 3 years, 3rd for 8 the remainder in 4th. I have taught every grade level K-8 in summer school. I coached youth sports for 11 years. I also had many Jehovah Witness friends growing up. I think I can pretty clearly.

I have allowed and delt with this for many years. It really is no big deal. Iíve never seen a child who doesnít stand have any sort of an issue with disruption. I have also never seen any disruption towards the students who donít participate other than a simple question which can be explained away pretty easily. It really is a complete non issue. I am curious as to why you would say that it creates a distraction. How many years of early childhood education experience with different religious faiths do you have? How well do you know the law? By your edge I can see that your acceptance and tolerance for their beliefs may be somewhat lacking. I encourage you to put away your biases and look at why these things are not allowed in some religions. It can either fall under pride, idol worship, or the fact with many Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite and Jehovahís Witness populations they are completely non political as there is no way for them to meld a political opinion with their nonjudgmental and pacifist belief system depending on each religion.

Now, if you for some reason think that itís ok for a school to violate this, make sure you have a nice suit ready because the 5 oíclock news would like to interview you, and Iím certain that there will be some formal discipline for you if not being a defendant in a lawsuit.
Ouch. Somebody just got roasted......

I would venture to say that rajncajn probably hasn't taught at that level and was making assumptions. I could be wrong, if I am I apologize.

But I agree with you Dave. I was a sub for two years at all levels K-12, I taught 8 years at 3 different High Schools in Houston, TX, taught one year at an Elementary in Slidell, and now on my 3rd year at a High School in LA.
I have never forced a kid to stand for the pledge. When a kid usually doesn't stand I kindly ask them just to stand and assure them you don't have to say it but if you could just stand that would be great. I have never had a problem. Most kids just stand and don't say it anyway.

In fact, it causes more of a disruption if you try and 'force' someone to stand when they don't want to. I ask them to stand and if they don't okay, we move on. In teaching you have to learn to pick your battles. I would rather fight the battle in getting that kid to pay attention in class or do his homework rather than cause a disruption to get that kid to stand for a forced display of nationalism. If you were a teacher you would realize that.
And again if you are a teacher I apologize, but you have yet to say so.
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Old 09-29-2017, 08:55 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samiam5211 View Post
I would be against giving children who participate a reward (refreshments) and denying those who choose not to participate that same reward. Not sure what the purpose of the refreshments would even be in this situation.

I am not even sure it would be legal to do it this way.
yeah - serving the kids who "comply" refreshments is essentially no different from saying the reward for standing is you get to play football. Both are illegal for violating a person's right to free expression.
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:13 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by rajncajn View Post
It doesn't matter if he understands the concept or not. At that age the child is learning structure, learning just how to obey & follow rules, learning HOW to learn. Children at that age don't even understand the concept of coloring within the lines.
I think it certainly matters. Is that not the entire argument? You're trying to categorize the pledge as a necessity for a child when it is clearly not---or at least not in the same category as eating, going to class, getting exercise at recess, not hitting other students, etc.

The pledge is unnecessary in public schools. It forces students to participate in reciting allegiance to something they may not fully agree with--either by coercion or peer pressure or disciplinary action. That is where it crosses the line into violating free speech rights. It doesn't matter if it is the law now--for clearly that does not mean it is justified.
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:23 AM   #37
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It doesn't matter if he understands the concept or not. At that age the child is learning structure, learning just how to obey & follow rules, learning HOW to learn. Children at that age don't even understand the concept of coloring within the lines.
Exactly! You have to start indoctrinating them early or you might miss out!!

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Old 09-29-2017, 09:28 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by JimEverett View Post
Here it is appropriate to talk about freedom of expression and the 1st Amendment.

Sitting or kneeling peacefully is not disruptive - anyone being honest knows that.

And just so we're all clear, when Jim says "here" he's referring to public schools . . . which under US law are an arm of the state and therefore public school policy is considered state action for purposes of the bill of rights.

In that way, it's completely different than the private employment relationship between the NFL/teams and the players.
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:30 AM   #39
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Oh and one last thing since Iím on a rant here. 6 year olds absolutely understand the concept of coloring in the lines. Itís their undeveloped fine motor control which makes it very difficult for them to do it. As their fine motor skills develop, some quicker than others depending upon parental involvement, previous experience and natural differences in development they will start to color within the lines.
My daughter is 4. She is in the process of learning how to color in the lines - she talks about it frequently and her coloring has gotten much neater over the course of the last year.

I think it's part of 4-year old development, not 6.
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:38 AM   #40
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Parkway is my alma mater, and while I object strongly to the edict by the principal, that objection extends to the Bossier Parish School Board. I think it's important to note that the position taken by school officials is being supported by the parish School Superintendent, Scott Smith. There are bigger implications here.

Also, I will take a moment to applaud neighboring Caddo Parish (Shreveport) school officials for stating that they respect the rights of their students and faculty to peacefully protest.

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In a statement to HuffPost given by Bossier Parish Superintendent Scott Smith, the district encouraged administration officials at 34 schools to make players stand for the national anthem.

“In Bossier Parish, we believe when a student chooses to join and participate on a team, the players and coaches should stand when our National Anthem is played in a show of respect,” Smith said. “It is a choice for students to participate in extracurricular activities, not a right, and we at Bossier Schools feel strongly that our teams and organizations should stand in unity to honor our nation’s military and veterans.”

Smith cited living in a “patriotic community” close to Barksdale Air Force Base as a reason to “pay homage to the American flag and stand during the National Anthem.” He said that he would leave the ultimate decision to principals and their coaching staff.

“As Superintendent, my administration will be in full support of these school-based decisions,” Smith added.

34 Schools In Louisiana Told By District That Athletes Should Stand For Anthem | HuffPost

Quote:
Caddo Parish’s stance on expressions during the anthem appears to be more permissive than its neighbors across the Red River.

“It is the policy and procedure of Caddo Parish Public Schools and the Caddo Parish School Board to allow students and staff to practice their First Amendment rights as long as that practice does not impede on the ability of others to practice their beliefs,” a statement from Caddo Superintendent Lamar Goree to The Times said.

http://www.11alive.com/sports/louisi...them/479528110
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:52 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by JLaneSaints View Post
Schools should not force the students to recite the pledge or stand for the anthem. That is not the school's right to decide that for a student.

However, at the same time, there is nothing against changing how you do the anthem at the school. Instead of in each class, what you do is you start each school day in the gym, with the national anthem. Any child who wishes not to participate in the anthem will be allowed to sit in the classroom while this is happening. Then serve refreshments in the gym before going to class and joining those who did not with to participate.

There you go, everyone wins!
Serving refreshments to students who do, while leaving out kids while I dunno would be illegal, would certainly land you in front of administration or board.
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:55 AM   #42
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Again folks... This is a 6 year old kid. But with that said...

He wasn't simply kneeling during the Anthem. He was Protesting.. Big difference.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:23 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Joe OKC View Post
Again folks... This is a 6 year old kid. But with that said...

He wasn't simply kneeling during the Anthem. He was Protesting.. Big difference.
Explain the difference.

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Credit to Samiam
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), is a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States holding that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.
The SCOTUS decision doesn't have a qualifier that excludes protest, it simply says that a student can not be forced to say the Pledge.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:30 AM   #44
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Again folks... This is a 6 year old kid. But with that said...

He wasn't simply kneeling during the Anthem. He was Protesting.. Big difference.
Why would someone kneel or do something other than the norm at all if it wasn't for a particular reason--ie protest? The very article you linked actually said nothing more than he kneeled during the pledge of allegiance. It seems that you are shaping this story a certain way--to how it fits with your narrative, maybe?

And tell me...how is one supposed to protest at all when anything other than the norm is considered "protest" and "disruptive" by the majority?
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:30 AM   #45
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Again folks... This is a 6 year old kid. But with that said...

He wasn't simply kneeling during the Anthem. He was Protesting.. Big difference.

The article you posted said the child took a knee during the pledge of allegiance. What exactly is the difference?

I get where you're coming from on the fact that the kid is six. While there is no distinction in US law that says that constitutional rights become exercisable only after a certain age, there is some basis in First Amendment law that says that students don't have free reign to exercise speech/expression at any time during their involvement at school.

Certainly the expression that the student's constitutional rights end at the schoolhouse door is inaccurate. In a famous school First Amendment case, the SCOTUS ruled that:

Quote:
In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school, as well as out of school, are "persons" under our Constitution. They are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State. In our system, students may not be regarded as closed-circuit recipients of only that which the State chooses to communicate. They may not be confined to the expression of those sentiments that are officially approved. In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views.
Tinker, 393 US 503, 511 (1969). https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed.../503/case.html

Note, however, that it is also the school's prerogative to regulate speech where it is constitutiaonlly valid. And it is true that in cases where the expressive conduct is shown to be objectively disruptive to the educational environment, the school system may have a constitutionally valid reason to limit the expression.

But objectively disruptive requires persuasive evidence, not merely amorphous feelings about what might or might not be disruptive. And with most constitutional scrutiny, the interests in limiting the expression (e.g. disruption) must be balanced against the expression (a constitutional right and different kinds of expression have differing merit - with religious or political expression being the most protected). Quietly taking a knee doesn't seem to be disruptive, at least to the extent that it could be reasonably balanced against the student's right to make that kind of political expression.

Yes, it's a six year old. But the analysis doesn't change. Six year olds have rights against wrongful search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and yes, rights to expression.
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