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Old 09-29-2017, 12:05 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajncajn View Post
Simply by not participating he has caused a disruption that takes time away from the class.
But doesn't reciting the PoA take time away from class?
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:06 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajncajn View Post
It was asked how it was disruptive, not how the disruption should be dealt with. A child doesn't have to be vocal to be a disruption. Simply by not participating he has caused a disruption that takes time away from the class. If he quietly chooses not to participate in the math lesson or quietly chooses not to go to lunch or whatever the rest of the class is doing it doesn't really matter if he is quiet about it, it still causes a disruption. He is also showing other kids that it is ok to not do what the teacher is asking them to do.
I think you are ignoring that it is possible for teachers to meet this head on.

Since Jimmy has a right to kneel or sit or not recite the pledge, then the teachers can remind the other students that they should respect that decision, and that it isn't a reason for them to be disruptive in their reactions. That shouldn't be complicated, and can actually teach kids an important lesson.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:06 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe OKC View Post
You don't have to participate in a song and hat off/hand over chest to honor our military heroes.

Proest supporters keep throwing this kind of stuff up... The Flag resents more than just our Military. It represents. Freedom, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights. Football, Baseball, chics in shorts, Hot dogs, pizza, Chevys, Fords, Harleys, Rock and Roll, Hip Hop. Everything American there is... it our whole way of life.
You are absolutely right Joe!

But you left out a few things...

It represents oppression of some people based on skin tone. It represents failing education systems. It represents ghettos. It represents mass incarceration at disproportionate levels...school to prison pipelines. It represents trillions of dollars of military spending and war making. It represents an obsolete and overly expensive healthcare system. It represents massive wealth inequality.

You seem to only want to see one side. That flag represents the entire envelope. It will never be perfect, but it should be leaps and bounds better.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:11 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by rajncajn View Post
So maybe the Pledge & the Anthem should be banned from schools as well in order to avoid any issues. That would be the easiest solution, right? That seems like the general direction we're headed anyway.
The pledge? Yes. It's unnecessary to me to swear allegiance to your country everyday and comes off too militaristic for comfort.

I wouldn't advocate getting rid of the anthem at all, as I've said in previous posts. There is a lot of pride and symbolism in that anthem that I think is and could serve in the future as a unifying moment for all people. What I want to see is folks respecting the differences of different peoples and understanding that we have not all been treated equally in this country and try to actively improve it so that we all can sing along with pride. Just my 2 pennies
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:12 PM   #95
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I think its a really big stretch to call a child sitting quietly while other students say the Pledge disruptive. Enough to deny that child his rights? It's evidently really easy for some people to take away rights that all Americans should have just to make themselves feel better.

Besides, just as David said, you as the teacher turn it into a civics lesson, which we as a nation sorely need.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:19 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mt15 View Post
I think its a really big stretch to call a child sitting quietly while other students say the Pledge disruptive.
Right.

If Jimmy is a Saints fan and he wears his team's jersey to his Atlanta school on "wear your jersey day", and all the other kids are wearing Falcons jerseys, Jimmy is practicing the same freedom to support his team as the other kids. If the other kids don't know how to deal with Jimmy's choice in a way that doesn't create a disruption in class, they should be taught how. It is their bad behavior that should be modified, not Jimmy's allowed behavior. Jimmy is awesome.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:37 PM   #97
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ps...re: Parkway. This is the same principal who recently fired the popular and successful football coach for discussing in a Baton Rouge radio interview that he didn't allow Bama to recruit on campus because he thought they treated potential recruits unfairly. An unofficial policy that had started under a previous principal and that the coach says he would have abandoned had he known Bates objected to it (his side of the story). That's neither here nor there other than to say I already wasn't a Principal Bates fan.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:40 PM   #98
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajncajn View Post
It was asked how it was disruptive, not how the disruption should be dealt with. A child doesn't have to be vocal to be a disruption. Simply by not participating he has caused a disruption that takes time away from the class.
Oh, come on. You're assuming something. A child taking a knee or sitting in his desk/remaining quiet during a 15 second pledge doesn't "take time away from the class".


Quote:
If he quietly chooses not to participate in the math lesson or quietly chooses not to go to lunch or whatever the rest of the class is doing it doesn't really matter if he is quiet about it, it still causes a disruption. He is also showing other kids that it is ok to not do what the teacher is asking them to do.
You and Joe have repeatedly tried to blend the pledge in with all other school activities to try to make the point that any refusal to participate in school activity=disruption. They aren't the same--I'm sorry. A kid not participating in math class or being led to lunch isn't being made to recite a patriotic oath.

Maybe the teachers should realize that forcing children to recite something they may/may not fully agree with is unconstitutional.

And as I've said before, the pledge as it is now worded is technically unconstitutional. Take out the 1954 addition of "under God" used to promote patriotism for the majority during the red scare--that violates freedom of speech laws outlined in the 1st amendment, too.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:24 PM   #99
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You know what's funny? In all my years in the Marine Corps, I never once, not one time, recited the Pledge of Allegiance. We just never did it.

What I did see was when there were morning or evening colors, were Marines trying like hell to run indoors as to not have to stand at attention for a few minutes while reveille/retreat was playing.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:34 PM   #100
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So people who stop watching football because of the protests must hate football then and not just the protests. That’s logically exactly the same argument that you’re making.
You’re taking what it would mean to you personally as an individual if you were to ‘protest’ like that (which clearly you would never do) and projecting that emotion into other people rather than take the time to listen and understand why they would feel the need to do this. Their act of protest doesn’t mean the same thing to them as they do it as it would mean to you if you were to do it.


Or maybe because they hate the constitution?????? That's not very Patriotic
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:42 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Joe OKC View Post
So is it acceptable for muslim kids to stage protests against pork during math class?

Joe, this sentence is like a game of Mad Libs and it made my day. Thank you.
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Old 09-29-2017, 02:20 PM   #102
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You're thinking about this reminds me of me , we think alike .

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I have edited my OP... So there is no confusion on where I stand with this issue. I was being sarcastic



According to the story, it's State Law.


A 6 year old shouldn't do anything he doesn't want to do or doesn't understand.

A 6 year old doesn't want to go to school or do his homework. Eat his vegetables instead of candy or go to bed on time. His parents make him do these things because it is in his best interest, even if he doesn't realize it.

So at 6 I kinda doubt he was doing more more than mimicking what he saw on TV without understanding the issues involved.


You don't have to participate in a song and hat off/hand over chest to honor our military heroes.

Proest supporters keep throwing this kind of stuff up... The Flag resents more than just our Military. It represents. Freedom, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights. Football, Baseball, chics in shorts, Hot dogs, pizza, Chevys, Fords, Harleys, Rock and Roll, Hip Hop. Everything American there is... it our whole way of life.

Do you have any idea how many would love to come to the USA and say a pledge to that Flag everyday?

and for some reason we want to protest against it... While we make millions... SMH
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Old 09-29-2017, 02:29 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildog View Post
You know what's funny? In all my years in the Marine Corps, I never once, not one time, recited the Pledge of Allegiance. We just never did it.

What I did see was when there were morning or evening colors, were Marines trying like hell to run indoors as to not have to stand at attention for a few minutes while reveille/retreat was playing.
How do you disrespect muh flag. How dare you disrespect muh veterans. I'm gonna boycott the Marines.
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Old 09-29-2017, 02:33 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajncajn View Post
It was asked how it was disruptive, not how the disruption should be dealt with. A child doesn't have to be vocal to be a disruption. Simply by not participating he has caused a disruption that takes time away from the class. If he quietly chooses not to participate in the math lesson or quietly chooses not to go to lunch or whatever the rest of the class is doing it doesn't really matter if he is quiet about it, it still causes a disruption. He is also showing other kids that it is ok to not do what the teacher is asking them to do.

Regarding the impact of the student's behavior, the Supreme Court has stated that the school would have to show that the expression "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others." Tinker, 393 US at 513 (1969). And that this disruption, disorder, or invasion must actually be demonstrated and not merely among the realm of possibility.

As for the pledge of allegiance, it simply is not "classwork" nor part of the educational curriculum. In fact, the Supreme Court addressed this in the 1943 West Virginia decision, where the Court rejected the idea that the pledge of allegiance is part of the educational classwork. Though the dissent argued that it was classwork because it involves "teaching by instruction and study of all in our history and in the structure and organization of our government, including the guaranties of civil liberty, which tend to inspire patriotism and love of country," the Court concluded that the pledge is not intended to educate but, rather, "a compulsion of students to declare a belief. They are not merely made acquainted with the flag salute so that they may be informed as to what it is or even what it means." 319 U.S. at 631.

The Court also rejected the idea the act of simply refusing to recite the pledge (or by extension to do it on one knee) is disruptive, in its own right. "The refusal of these persons to participate in the [pledge] ceremony does not interfere with or deny rights of others to do so. Nor is there any question in this case that their behavior is peaceable and orderly." 319 U.S. at 630.

So based on the test of "material disruption of classwork" or "substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others", the answer is simply that kneeling for the pledge or refusing to say it does not implicate those concerns.

The answer might very well be different for different hypotheticals, depending on whether the act in question is or is not a material disruption, or whether the activity involved is classwork. Or whether the act interferes with the rights of others.

It's not a situation where everything is yes or everything is no.
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Old 09-29-2017, 04:07 PM   #105
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