TV HBO picks up George RR Martin series - Game of Thrones (5 Viewers)

[guidomerkinsrules]

But, the thing is that her spies can't be very good because she did not know that Varys had betrayed her or that he was trying to poison her again. When Tyrion goes to tell her he says you have been betrayed. And she says I know, Jon Snow betrayed me. Tryion has to tell her no, Varys betrayed you. So, her spies can't be that good since she did not know about Varys.

she wasn't eating and while that's not proof, it's decent circumstantial evidence that she had an inkling about the poisoning

when she said "jon' she mean the initial blabbing even after her begging
so when tyrion says 'varys' she just hears it as 'also varys'

Also, that little routine with Jamie's guards happens shortly before the battle and the guards had no real reason to think anything was wrong. I don't think they had time to tell anyone and even if they did, they were Unsullied guards, they can't just run to Dany and get a private audience right before the battle to tell her something suspicious happened with Tyrion, even if they had thought to do it. Likely, they would have followed the chain of command and reported it to Grey Worm. But, they clearly didn't do that since Grey Worm was standing right by Tyrion before the battle and says nothing to him about it. In fact, given Grey Worm's state and his knowledge that Varys had betrayed Dany, I suspect if Grey Worm had known about it, he would have run Tyrion through with his spear.

So, I don't really see any way that she could have known of Tyrion's plan before she burned the City. And, even if she did, for all she knew, the plan had worked since the bells were ringing.

s1-4 this would be sound reasoning
s7&8 just don't have 'there wouldn't be time' as part of their calcalus

i still feel there's no possible way she didn't know
and she would let tyrion live and see it all as punishment like we've talked about

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

You’re ignoring the fact that the war was over before she razed King’s Landing. We were still waiting for the Japanese to surrender when we dropped the second bomb.

the battle was over
the 'hearts and minds' battle was nowhere close to over

 

[brandon8283]

again she razed KL to punish Tyrion for his betrayal - the innocents were collateral damage

I just don't see enough evidence to support this argument. I mean, I get what you're saying, but it's a stretch and there's really nothing to support it other than your supposition.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Had Japan surrendered after Hiroshima I don't believe the second bomb would have been dropped on them, which is where I see the difference.

we need to gete Joe OKC or GrandAdmiral in here - but i recall that japan was in the process of surrendering before nagasaki

 

[DadsDream]

Somebody remind me . . . How many mui

I watched it again last night and it was clear that she was burning everyone and didn't care if they were civilians or soldiers. She methodically burned the entire city.

I described it to my wife as a "mowing the lawn" pattern, as Drogon methodically went back and forth between the city walls.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I just don't see enough evidence to support this argument. I mean, I get what you're saying, but it's a stretch and there's really nothing to support it other than your supposition.

sure
and i alluded to that awhile back saying that while Emilia Clarke has improved tremendously as an actor
she just didn't have the chops to pull all that off as a reaction shot (but there really wasn't anyone that she could have a twofer with so that we could hear her thinking)
HOWEVER
there's just as much evidence (if not more) for my supposition as others' 'oh she just went mad'

 

[St. Widge]

i still feel there's no possible way she didn't know
and she would let tyrion live and see it all as punishment like we've talked about

Regardless of the timing and the evidence that she didn't know, which I think are both compelling reasons to think she didn't know, the "she went totally mad and committed a war crime" seems like a much better, simpler, and supported position than she killed ten of thousands and destroyed the city and keep that she wanted, to teach a dwarf a lesson.

I mean, as already noted, the she went crazy hypothesis tracks what her father did and has been hinted at over and over since the show began. I don't see how killing all those people and destroying the city that she wanted to take, really teaches Tyrion anything other than that she is bat sheet crazy. If she wanted to teach Tyrionn a lesson, she should have arrested Jamie and burned him before his eyes shortly before killing Tyrion. In fact, she promised him that the next time he failed her it would be his last (read: I'm going to kill you), not that the next time you fail me, I'm going to teach you a serious lesson.

 

[farfromsilent]

the battle was over
the 'hearts and minds' battle was nowhere close to over

The battle was not over. The WAR was over. She would have had time to win the hearts and minds had she not become a mass murderer the likes of which Westeros had never seen.

 

[brandon8283]

there's just as much evidence (if not more) for my supposition as others' 'oh she just went mad'

But I don't think that's the mainstream argument.

The typical argument is that the latent madness was always in her family and that we've seen glimpses of it throughout the show. The recent loss of her military, Rhaegal, and Missandei pushed her over the edge into madness. We see this written all over her face in the immediate aftermath of Missandei's death. Further, there is discussion that she wants to attack the city immediately, but Jon says "Daybreak at the earliest." She snapped right after Missandei's death and wanted Fire and Blood right at that moment.

I'd say there's way more evidence to support that argument than yours.

 

[saint_drago]

The battle was not over. The WAR was over. She would have had time to win the hearts and minds had she not become a mass murderer the likes of which Westeros had never seen.

Exactly this. Had she flown straight towards the Red Keep and landed Drogon on top of it the people might've come out cheering just knowing that the war was over. Knowing that their new ruler vanquished the tyrant and the oppression was over. It could've been V -KL Day. Instead it was a massacre the likes of which Westeros has never seen. No other ruler has committed an atrocity on this scale.

 

[DaveXA]

we need to gete Joe OKC or GrandAdmiral in here - but i recall that japan was in the process of surrendering before nagasaki

I'm pretty sure this is correct. They were planning to surrender, but they couldn't get word out in time before Nagasaki. Which is baffling to me. I never understood why it took that long to respond to the first bomb.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

again she razed KL to punish Tyrion for his betrayal - the innocents were collateral damage
the US did not bomb Nagasaki to kill innocents

A point I heard today was that she was absolutely punishing the innocents because they were crying out to ring the bells in surrender and fear instead of rising up in support of her to overthrow Cersei. The ringing bells that triggered the 'nuclear attack' were the final straw to remind her she's not loved in Westeros.

"Oh you're scared? I'll show you something to be scared of..."

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

But, the thing is that her spies can't be very good because she did not know that Varys had betrayed her or that he was trying to poison her again. When Tyrion goes to tell her he says you have been betrayed. And she says I know, Jon Snow betrayed me. Tryion has to tell her no, Varys betrayed you. So, her spies can't be that good since she did not know about Varys.

Also, that little routine with Jamie's guards happens shortly before the battle and the guards had no real reason to think anything was wrong. I don't think they had time to tell anyone and even if they did, they were Unsullied guards, they can't just run to Dany and get a private audience right before the battle to tell her something suspicious happened with Tyrion, even if they had thought to do it. Likely, they would have followed the chain of command and reported it to Grey Worm. But, they clearly didn't do that since Grey Worm was standing right by Tyrion before the battle and says nothing to him about it. In fact, given Grey Worm's state and his knowledge that Varys had betrayed Dany, I suspect if Grey Worm had known about it, he would have run Tyrion through with his spear.

So, I don't really see any way that she could have known of Tyrion's plan before she burned the City. And, even if she did, for all she knew, the plan had worked since the bells were ringing.

I think she knew about Jon’s betrayal was because Jon had told her about his conversation with Varys. Varys did what she’d expect him to do in the situation, she felt betrayal from Jon.

 

[farfromsilent]

I'm pretty sure this is correct. They were planning to surrender, but they couldn't get word out in time before Nagasaki. Which is baffling to me. I never understood why it took that long to respond to the first bomb.

Even if that is correct, you can’t make the equivalency that guido is trying to make, as word had not been received by the US before the bomb. Daenerys knew full well the city surrendered.

 

[Brandon13]

we need to gete Joe OKC or GrandAdmiral in here - but i recall that japan was in the process of surrendering before nagasaki

from my quick reading on it it seems like the higher-ups in Japan were split on what to do after the first bombing, it doesn't appear to me that they had made the absolute decision to stop fighting at that point.

Edit: Or what DaveXA said lol. Either way, it's different than what Dany did.