USA Today article of analysis of Saints penalty disparity (1 Viewer)

[bc]

I get it, it sucks that we got shafted last year, but threads like this are pretty juvenile. Firstly, you completely ignore the following from the article you quoted:

"A big part of the problem is limited sample size. Analyzing the game from a quantifiable perspective like this works in other sports like baseball and basketball because there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of data points to work with, whereas football begins and ends very quickly, relying on a 16-game regular season and four-stage postseason tournament. Instances like this are easy to explain away as an outlier, a freak accident, against what recent history informs us. That said, it’s totally understandable if fans aren’t satisfied with that explanation. It’s frustrating to see your team get fouled for what the other squad gets away with, week in and week out. "

The sample size is not big enough to draw any statistically significant conclusions. So while the graph looks good to conspiracy theorists, it can't be interpreted in any meaningful way beyond that which is trivially obvious (the saints give up more penalties than their opponents).

Also, how are you able to watch football if you are so sure it's rigged? If the refs are trying to screw us, why get so emotionally involved dedicating time and effort into this sport? If you claim conspiracy when we lose you should also be happy to accept that the 2009 superbowl victory was a farce, and at that point you are basically just watching WWE.

I get it, it sucks that we got shafted last year, but threads like this are pretty juvenile. Firstly, you completely ignore the following from the article you quoted:

"A big part of the problem is limited sample size. Analyzing the game from a quantifiable perspective like this works in other sports like baseball and basketball because there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of data points to work with, whereas football begins and ends very quickly, relying on a 16-game regular season and four-stage postseason tournament. Instances like this are easy to explain away as an outlier, a freak accident, against what recent history informs us. That said, it’s totally understandable if fans aren’t satisfied with that explanation. It’s frustrating to see your team get fouled for what the other squad gets away with, week in and week out. "

The sample size is not big enough to draw any statistically significant conclusions. So while the graph looks good to conspiracy theorists, it can't be interpreted in any meaningful way beyond that which is trivially obvious (the saints give up more penalties than their opponents).

Also, how are you able to watch football if you are so sure it's rigged? If the refs are trying to screw us, why get so emotionally involved dedicating time and effort into this sport? If you claim conspiracy when we lose you should also be happy to accept that the 2009 superbowl victory was a farce, and at that point you are basically just watching WWE.

I think you’re missing the point that many of us feel that while games they not be outright rigged, they can definitely be manipulated towards a certain outcome.

You have to remember you are talking many lifelong and diehard fans who are heavily invested in this team. We are Seeing a disparity in calls on a weekly basis. This slowly erodes confidence in the product and in the NFL at large.

You’ve probably noticed the frustration on the forum over the past year. A number of posters gave up on the nfl entirely and others like myself started only watching saints games. Straws on a camels back...

 

[Domeination]

I have watched every single game. What's your point though? I think we have been on the wrong end of some calls, but it doesn't appear to be some massive conspiracy. Refs are human they make mistakes. Some of them may even be corrupt and we should try point that out where we can. But threads suggesting some kind of conspiracy by the NFL against the saints seems asinine.

Why watch football if you believe the league is actively intervening in games? And why bring it up if you don't believe it is a conspiracy?

The fact is that the Saints got treated differently from EVERY other team when Payton got suspended for a year for doing something that just about every team was doing (keeping a pot of money in the locker room for rewarding big defensive hits), and we were also penalized draft choices. No team before--or since--has ever had its HC suspended for an entire season. Compare that to the comparatively very light penalties the Patriots got for actual cheating (more than once). Now, is it just a coincidence that our rate of being penalized has gone significantly up the year after we led the charge for the new PI challenge rule b/c we got victimized on a TERRIBLE non-call for PI that cost us the NFC Championship? And, at the same time, our opponents are curiously penalized a lot less only when they play us? I am basically a rational person who abides by Ockham's Razor. I look for the simplest, most elegant explanation of cause-effect. I do no believe in Byzantine and bizarre conspiracy theories. There is nothing intricate or difficult to the rather direct and simple connections above. Clearly, Roger Goodell hates Payton, but it is well known that he is good buddies with the Patriots' owner Robert Kraft. And the fact that we are getting very noticeably disparate treatment on penalties the year after the debacle against the Rams is too convenient to be coincidence. Open your eyes, my friend.

 

[bloodysaint]

now if only we can get national media on this

 

[David Robbins]

Those numbers are amazing. What a joke the Ref's are.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I get it, it sucks that we got shafted last year, but threads like this are pretty juvenile. Firstly, you completely ignore the following from the article you quoted:

"A big part of the problem is limited sample size. Analyzing the game from a quantifiable perspective like this works in other sports like baseball and basketball because there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of data points to work with, whereas football begins and ends very quickly, relying on a 16-game regular season and four-stage postseason tournament. Instances like this are easy to explain away as an outlier, a freak accident, against what recent history informs us. That said, it’s totally understandable if fans aren’t satisfied with that explanation. It’s frustrating to see your team get fouled for what the other squad gets away with, week in and week out. "

The sample size is not big enough to draw any statistically significant conclusions. So while the graph looks good to conspiracy theorists, it can't be interpreted in any meaningful way beyond that which is trivially obvious (the saints give up more penalties than their opponents).

Also, how are you able to watch football if you are so sure it's rigged? If the refs are trying to screw us, why get so emotionally involved dedicating time and effort into this sport? If you claim conspiracy when we lose you should also be happy to accept that the 2009 superbowl victory was a farce, and at that point you are basically just watching WWE.

You make the same mistake you accuse others of making
-small sample size ergo outlier -
There’s not enough data to prove outlier, so you’re making an assumption just like you wag your finger at others for doing

 

[efil4stnias]

I have watched every single game. What's your point though? I think we have been on the wrong end of some calls, but it doesn't appear to be some massive conspiracy. Refs are human they make mistakes. Some of them may even be corrupt and we should try point that out where we can. But threads suggesting some kind of conspiracy by the NFL against the saints seems asinine.

Why watch football if you believe the league is actively intervening in games? And why bring it up if you don't believe it is a conspiracy?

What happens to you, or anyone else for that matter, if you make a mistake on the job?

And what happens if you repeat the mistake?

Do you get to invoke the "humans make mistakes" defense to keep your job?

We all know the answer to this. So what makes them different? Why is it acceptable to you as a consumer? I mean, if you have your home built and they put the garage where your master bedroom should be, that's cool right? Since you accept the whole humans make mistakes defense.

 

[ElGatoNegro]

I think you’re missing the point that many of us feel that while games they not be outright rigged, they can definitely be manipulated towards a certain outcome.

You have to remember you are talking many lifelong and diehard fans who are heavily invested in this team. We are Seeing a disparity in calls on a weekly basis. This slowly erodes confidence in the product and in the NFL at large.

You’ve probably noticed the frustration on the forum over the past year. A number of posters gave up on the nfl entirely and others like myself started only watching saints games. Straws on a camels back...

I am not missing it. I agree they can be manipulated, I just do not believe that they are. Moaning about it seems intellectually dishonest to me, because none of these posters are going to complain if we win the superbowl.

It seems really simple, either someone has the capacity and power to influence the outcome of nfl games and they are doing it, in which case the league is basically scripted and our 2009 superbowl victory is a farce.

Or there is no conspiracy behind it and the mistakes and disparity is due to chance. No one even seems to be considering this. Is this the biggest disparity in the league? Is it the biggest one ever, is it bigger than the biggest disparity in most years? All of these seem like valid questions that no one is even attempting to answer. Instead we keep harping on about refs and pass interference like a broken record.

 

[ElGatoNegro]

You make the same mistake you accuse others of making
-small sample size ergo outlier -
There’s not enough data to prove outlier, so you’re making an assumption just like you wag your finger at others for doing

What assumption am I making?

 

[Saintamaniac]

I really hope Florio picks up on this and talks about it. If anything, I hope the new light that's being spread on what Riveron has ordered his refs to do, backs him off and we get back to fair officiating.

 

[ElGatoNegro]

What happens to you, or anyone else for that matter, if you make a mistake on the job?

And what happens if you repeat the mistake?

Do you get to invoke the "humans make mistakes" defense to keep your job?

We all know the answer to this. So what makes them different? Why is it acceptable to you as a consumer? I mean, if you have your home built and they put the garage where your master bedroom should be, that's cool right? Since you accept the whole humans make mistakes defense.

I agree that it isn't acceptable at an NFL level. But if that is the argument this thread should focus on the specific referees that continuously make mistakes instead of trying to frame it as some conspiracy against the saints. These are two seperate issues.

I 100% agree that the refereeing in the NFL needs to get looked at (making them all full-time would be a good start). I vehemently disagree that the poor refereeing is due to some conspiracy against us.

 

[ElGatoNegro]

The fact is that the Saints got treated differently from EVERY other team when Payton got suspended for a year for doing something that just about every team was doing (keeping a pot of money in the locker room for rewarding big defensive hits), and we were also penalized draft choices. No team before--or since--has ever had its HC suspended for an entire season. Compare that to the comparatively very light penalties the Patriots got for actual cheating (more than once). Now, is it just a coincidence that our rate of being penalized has gone significantly up the year after we led the charge for the new PI challenge rule b/c we got victimized on a TERRIBLE non-call for PI that cost us the NFC Championship? And, at the same time, our opponents are curiously penalized a lot less only when they play us? I am basically a rational person who abides by Ockham's Razor. I look for the simplest, most elegant explanation of cause-effect. I do no believe in Byzantine and bizarre conspiracy theories. There is nothing intricate or difficult to the rather direct and simple connections above. Clearly, Roger Goodell hates Payton, but it is well known that he is good buddies with the Patriots' owner Robert Kraft. And the fact that we are getting very noticeably disparate treatment on penalties the year after the debacle against the Rams is too convenient to be coincidence. Open your eyes, my friend.

So then why are you spending time and effort suporting/watching a rigged league?

 

[J.T.]

I really hope Florio picks up on this and talks about it. If anything, I hope the new light that's being spread on what Riveron has ordered his refs to do, backs him off and we get back to fair officiating.

I sent it to Florio. I have had some email correspondence back and forth with him since 2006. He might open my emails.....

 

[DaveParks1]

So then why are you spending time and effort suporting/watching a rigged league?

Because we love football and love the Saints. Under your reasoning, if we see something going wrong with something we love, we should not try and fix it, and we should not complain about unfairness, rather we should just quit. Feel free to quit, but I've been a fan for 50 years. I'm sure this will get resolved ultimately, and I'm not going to stop watching just because a problem has arisen. Odd way to go through life, honestly

 

[Clintonrebel]

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories and I don’t think these results were orchestrated by officials with a grudge, at least on an organized basis. I DO fully believe that officials resent the backlash after last years NFC game and they resent Sean Payton pushing for a rules change and subconsciously or maybe semi-consciously this has brought bias into the games they call for the Saints. But what is awesome about this article is that it will likely make officials subconsciously more hesitant to make border line calls against us going forward. Couldn’t have come at a more perfect time.

 

[Super44]

I get it, it sucks that we got shafted last year, but threads like this are pretty juvenile. Firstly, you completely ignore the following from the article you quoted:

"A big part of the problem is limited sample size. Analyzing the game from a quantifiable perspective like this works in other sports like baseball and basketball because there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of data points to work with, whereas football begins and ends very quickly, relying on a 16-game regular season and four-stage postseason tournament. Instances like this are easy to explain away as an outlier, a freak accident, against what recent history informs us. That said, it’s totally understandable if fans aren’t satisfied with that explanation. It’s frustrating to see your team get fouled for what the other squad gets away with, week in and week out. "

The sample size is not big enough to draw any statistically significant conclusions. So while the graph looks good to conspiracy theorists, it can't be interpreted in any meaningful way beyond that which is trivially obvious (the saints give up more penalties than their opponents).

Also, how are you able to watch football if you are so sure it's rigged? If the refs are trying to screw us, why get so emotionally involved dedicating time and effort into this sport? If you claim conspiracy when we lose you should also be happy to accept that the 2009 superbowl victory was a farce, and at that point you are basically just watching WWE.

So you are disputing the analytical facts. You are clueless. Facts are facts, regardless of sample size, which is what the OP was asking for to begin with. Child; please!