Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (1 Viewer)

[RazorOye]

I am not supportive of transgender athletes participating in gendered-sports. At least not broadly. I've said before that I don't know what I think and I don't have any of the answers.

I am okay with there being a Men's This and a Women's That.

Now, I said I don't think it's about 'fairness' - so I think it's reasonable to ask what do I think it's about, for me, anyway. And I'm not sure.

But I've thought about it and at least two dynamics are in play for me.

First, competition and second, excellence.

I'd rather watch an excellent girls team play a decent boys team in basketball than an excellent boys team play a truly awful girls team. Because it would be more competitive. I don't want to watch crap boys vs. excellent boys because they are the same "sex"

Sex isn't a factor there.

But does that mean sex isn't ever a factor? of course not. I'm fine with the use of sex as a determinant or classification.

I also think that different types of competition merits different consideration and becomes a different conversation. So that isn't an absolute, either.

We separate D1 football from D3 football. I don't and wouldn't enjoy LSU playing Louisiana College, either.

As for the second, when it comes to excellence, I'm okay with the US Women dominating another team in soccer. I'm okay with Usain Bolt making every race a non-factor. I'm fine with Ken Jennings running away with each episode of Jeopardy!. I love watching Simone Biles shred her competition.

In each of these cases, each time the competitor steps into the arena, it's not going to be "fair" and that's fine.

Then again, I'm not really of the 'every participant needs a ribbon' type, either.

 

[rajncajn]

No, I don't. I couldn't be Michael Phelps, either. His body has a different ability to process lactic acid and he has physiological advantages, besides, that I don't.

And I have no problem with that. I have no problem with admiring and rooting for his excellence. But I am also under no delusion that all that is keeping me from his career is "dedication, drive, and coaching." His genetic potential is much greater than mine.

And more power to him.

It's easy to make that argument when you're only dealing in extremes. Maybe you can't be Michael Jordan or Michael Phelps. That doesn't mean that you couldn't be a competitive or even a champion athlete in that sport had you had the will to do so. How many women swimmers do you see competing in the same level as men? How many women do you think could play in the NBA, NFL or NHL? There's a reason they don't and it has very little, if at all, to do with gender equality.

 

[RazorOye]

Don't make me go look for them. Not only on different threads, but different boards as well

"Don't make me..."? I mean... seriously?

I already did. I didn't recall posting in many different places about her, so I checked to make sure. I did two searches, but you're free to add more.

I made two separate searches for posts including "Caster" and "Semenya" and displayed results by Thread. This is what I found, which I mentioned above:

And there's one other board. And I don't post or go there anymore - not in a long while. Because (among other reasons) I got tired of the distortion of my posts there, incl on this particular topic. Not sure how that's relevant, but okay. Still, it would be the singular 'board' - not 'boards'

 

[RazorOye]

It's easy to make that argument when you're only dealing in extremes. Maybe you can't be Michael Jordan or Michael Phelps.

But I'm just using your post which said I could.

I'm glad we're on the same page now.

As I said above, there's something to be said about why we believe this way about this topic and absolute fairness doesn't account for the entirety. Thus, it's more complex than I think most assume.

As for the rest of your post, I think I addressed it above.

 

[SystemShock]

No, I don't. I couldn't be Michael Phelps, either. His body has a different ability to process lactic acid and he has physiological advantages, besides, that I don't.

And I have no problem with that. I have no problem with admiring and rooting for his excellence. But I am also under no delusion that all that is keeping me from his career is "dedication, drive, and coaching." His genetic potential is much greater than mine.

And more power to him.

Jordan, Phelps, Bolt... so because there are these rare individuals who are the best ever at what they do, we should eliminate every boundary, every standard, every factor, even history, and just make it a free for all.

Is that your argument? That is a piss poor argument.

 

[SystemShock]

"Don't make me..."? I mean... seriously?

I already did. I didn't recall posting in many different places about her, so I checked to make sure. I did two searches, but you're free to add more.

I made two separate searches for posts including "Caster" and "Semenya" and displayed results by Thread. This is what I found, which I mentioned above:

And there's one other board. And I don't post or go there anymore - not in a long while. Because (among other reasons) I got tired of the distortion of my posts there, incl on this particular topic. Not sure how that's relevant, but okay. Still, it would be the singular 'board' - not 'boards'

.. so what you are saying, it is more than 2.

 

[RazorOye]

Jordan, Phelps, Bolt... so because there are these rare individuals who are the best ever at what they do, we should eliminate every boundary, every standard, every factor, even history, and just make it a free for all.

Is that your argument? That is a piss poor argument.

not my argument at all...

not even close

In fact, I said pretty much the opposite above

it gets so tiresome to see you consistently misrepresent my words and distort my thoughts on this topic. Now, maybe I'm not making myself clear, despite trying.

But in this case, it's pretty obvious that is *not* my argument, and yet you are acting like it is.

 

[RazorOye]

.. so what you are saying, it is more than 2.

I'm saying it's actually 1. This one.

 

[SystemShock]

not my argument at all...

not even close

In fact, I said pretty much the opposite above

it gets so tiresome to see you consistently misrepresent my words and distort my thoughts on this topic. Now, maybe I'm not making myself clear, despite trying.

But in this case, it's pretty obvious that is *not* my argument, and yet you are acting like it is.

So why do you keep bringing them up? What is the point of bringing them up?

"We accept that Phelps has a physical advantage over every male swimmer he competes against, therefore we must accept the physical advantage XY's have over XXs". Isn't that your argument? Because if it is not, that's exactly how it comes across.

 

[rajncajn]

But I'm just using your post which said I could.

I'm glad we're on the same page now.

As I said above, there's something to be said about why we believe this way about this topic and absolute fairness doesn't account for the entirety. Thus, it's more complex than I think most assume.

As for the rest of your post, I think I addressed it above.

I am not supportive of transgender athletes participating in gendered-sports. At least not broadly. I've said before that I don't know what I think and I don't have any of the answers.

I am okay with there being a Men's This and a Women's That.

Now, I said I don't think it's about 'fairness' - so I think it's reasonable to ask what do I think it's about, for me, anyway. And I'm not sure.

But I've thought about it and at least two dynamics are in play for me.

First, competition and second, excellence.

I'd rather watch an excellent girls team play a decent boys team in basketball than an excellent boys team play a truly awful girls team. Because it would be more competitive. I don't want to watch crap boys vs. excellent boys because they are the same "sex"

Sex isn't a factor there.

But does that mean sex isn't ever a factor? of course not. I'm fine with the use of sex as a determinant or classification.

I also think that different types of competition merits different consideration and becomes a different conversation. So that isn't an absolute, either.

We separate D1 football from D3 football. I don't and wouldn't enjoy LSU playing Louisiana College, either.

As for the second, when it comes to excellence, I'm okay with the US Women dominating another team in soccer. I'm okay with Usain Bolt making every race a non-factor. I'm fine with Ken Jennings running away with each episode of Jeopardy!. I love watching Simone Biles shred her competition.

In each of these cases, each time the competitor steps into the arena, it's not going to be "fair" and that's fine.

Then again, I'm not really of the 'every participant needs a ribbon' type, either.

Lol, so you agree with us, but since you're not quite sure why it isn't about Transgender bias for you whereas it is for us because we at least make an attempt to rationalize and define our feelings. How convenient...

 

[RazorOye]

Lol, so you agree with us, but since you're not quite sure why it isn't about Transgender bias for you whereas it is for us because we at least make an attempt to rationalize and define our feelings. How convenient...

No.

I haven't said anything about 'transgender bias' - I've said I think, for me, this is an issue about competitiveness (maybe you see it as mere semantics with fairness) and excellence, which aren't *always* and necessarily tied to gender, but gender is definitely a factor for some types of competition

It's getting really tedious with others putting thoughts and intent and words into my head that aren't there

 

[Brandon13]

I think it is about fairness to me. The natural unfairness inherent to competition (bigger/faster, smaller/slower etc.) is distinguishable in my view from unnatural unfairness not inherent to competition.

So in a basketball league of 5 and 6 year olds, some of the kids will faster and some slower. That's the nature of the competition. Now put a fourteen year old out there on one of the teams and suddenly that team has an unnatural competitive advantage on the other.

That's about how I view this anyways.

 

[RazorOye]

So in a basketball league of 5 and 6 year olds, some of the kids will faster and some slower. That's the nature of the competition. Now put a fourteen year old out there on one of the teams and suddenly that team has an unnatural competitive advantage on the other.

like when I watched Kevin Faulk against us in high school

or when I had to defend Kavika Pittman in the post doubleplus

 

[rajncajn]

No.

I haven't said anything about 'transgender bias' -

Oh, but that's certainly what has been implied by multiple people throughout this thread since it's inception.

It's getting really tedious with others putting thoughts and intent and words into my head that aren't there

Exactly the way I feel.

 

[RazorOye]

I think it is about fairness to me. The natural unfairness inherent to competition (bigger/faster, smaller/slower etc.) is distinguishable in my view from unnatural unfairness not inherent to competition.

I didn't want to add this part with the joke above - because this is a response that I appreciate and get. And seems to be about what I'm talking about without making assumptions or wrongful accusations about what I've said or believe.

When you talk about "natural/unnatural fairness/unfairness inherent to competition" I think I follow.

Usain Bolt will line up against some sprinter from some other country and the race is over before it begins. Really. That's not "fair" - what you're seeing isn't a "fair" competition in terms of equality. But it's 'legitimate' - fair in that sense - because it's 'inherent to [that particular] competition'

I would say that when I watch Usain Bolt smoke another sprinter, I'm not watching that event because I expect it to be 'competitive' or close. BUt I'd still tune in. Why? Because of the dominance and excellence on display. He could be racing a woman, or a 5- or 6-year old kid for all it matters. But having other men, professional sprinters, line up against him, it gives us a reasonable sense of his true domination.

That's where I think the analogy of - to borrow from Mitch Hedberg - "I wish I could play little league now, I'd kick some forkin' arse.... Throw your curveball. You're 12, it won't curve" kinda fall apart as a meaningful comparison.