Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (5 Viewers)

[rajncajn]

I think it is about fairness to me. The natural unfairness inherent to competition (bigger/faster, smaller/slower etc.) is distinguishable in my view from unnatural unfairness not inherent to competition.

So in a basketball league of 5 and 6 year olds, some of the kids will faster and some slower. That's the nature of the competition. Now put a fourteen year old out there on one of the teams and suddenly that team has an unnatural competitive advantage on the other.

That's about how I view this anyways.

I'm not sure how that's any different than what I've been saying all along, but others still want to insist that they don't think it's about "fairness."

 

[Dago]

Oye and I continued our conversation in PM

just wanted to post that I did not have a grasp on what he was saying. Still most likely agree to disagree, but I was misconstruing what he was getting at

sorry, just thought I needed to throw that out there in the interest of being 'fair'

 

[Brandon13]

I'm not sure how that's any different than what I've been saying all along, but others still want to insist that they don't think it's about "fairness."

I didn't really read through this thread thoroughly before posting.. just saw the "fairness" thing seemed to be a talking point and I chimed in.

 

[boutrous]

So why do you keep bringing them up? What is the point of bringing them up?

"We accept that Phelps has a physical advantage over every male swimmer he competes against, therefore we must accept the physical advantage XY's have over XXs". Isn't that your argument? Because if it is not, that's exactly how it comes across.

I feel like you are rally against Oye "for the general cause" instead of actually listening to what he is saying. He's trying to honest about not having it all figured out. Logically he admits he see's your point, but emotionally it feels like a betrayal to accept those points. As an empathetic person, I definitely feel the way Oye does about fairness, but ultimately, some teams are just better than others. Just as some athletes are better than others. It's not sufficient to say that training can make anyone a world class athlete, that simply is just not true. But overall, I think we have to do the best we can to create a competitive environment which is as fair as possible to the competitors, especially as the significance of the "prize" increases. This is why we have weight and gender divisions in certain sport. Science isn't advanced enough, and honestly I don't think we want it to get invasive enough, to categorize people by their chemical / physical make-up, gender be damned. This would probably be the most fair way, but we are not there yet. So we use classifications such as gender and weight to generalize as best we can without being invasive enough to get precise. That is the problem, afterall, how precise do we want to be to keep competition fair? To me, I am empathetic, but I can also separate the mind from the body. I understand we do not want to exclude people from society because of their personal preferences, but I believe that competitive sport is a special circumstance. It's not about choice, per say, it's about genetic makeup. I feel bad for transgender athletes who want to compete, but I don't think the current classifications in place are precise enough to give them or their competition a fair environment in which to compete in. So it's not as simple as saying they can or can't compete with females. Maybe some can and maybe some can't, but until more precise classifications come about, it's not going to be fair for someone.

 

[SystemShock]

I feel like you are rally against Oye "for the general cause" instead of actually listening to what he is saying. He's trying to honest about not having it all figured out.

Yet he continues to bring who unequal Jordan, Phelps, Bolt are to the rest of the competition, and how we accept that.

And yes, I am rallying "for the general cause", because none of this is about outliers or one-of-a-kinds like Jordan, Phelps, Bolt... it is about protecting women, the individuals who are born with XX chromosomes and have periods (or at least the equipment to have periods), and who for ages have not gotten opportunities because they were born with vaginas.

So it's not as simple as saying they can or can't compete with females.

It is as simple as that.

 

[boutrous]

Yet he continues to bring who unequal Jordan, Phelps, Bolt are to the rest of the competition, and how we accept that.

And yes, I am rallying "for the general cause", because none of this is about outliers or one-of-a-kinds like Jordan, Phelps, Bolt... it is about protecting women, the individuals who are born with XX chromosomes and have periods (or at least the equipment to have periods), and who for ages have not gotten opportunities because they were born with vaginas.


It is as simple as that.

We make it as simple as that because it's the tools we have, or rather the tools we choose to use. I am all for everyone's rights, especially women and I explicitly pointed out how it's an unfair situation for them. Again, you are making it seem as if my post is not in alignment with your philosophy, it most certainly is. Sporting competition should be more fair as the "prize" increases. Are we really concerned for the world if a Thursday night men's softball team has a high school girl come play for them so they wouldn't have to forfit? (This is a real example by the way). No we are making a big deal about it because collegiate sports can set someone up for a paying sports career. We certainly want to make sure everyone is getting their fair opportunity. The decision isn't an easy one because it's forcing people to be excluded, but, in the end, the exclusion is probably the most just outcome, even if it doesn't sit well with our empathy.

 

[SystemShock]

Are we really concerned for the world if a Thursday night men's softball team has a high school girl come play for them so they wouldn't have to forfit? (This is a real example by the way).

Not at all. But that's the wrong analogy. A better analogy would be a H.S. girls softball team bringing a man to fill in.

making a big deal about it because collegiate sports can set someone up for a paying sports career.

More importantly, scholarships.

 

[boutrous]

Not at all. But that's the wrong analogy. A better analogy would be a H.S. girls softball team bringing a man to fill in.


More importantly, scholarships.

You obviously haven't seen a Thursday Night men's softball team, she was by far the best player on the field that night and she kicked our butts. The point is fairness is not always determined by gender, however, it's the tool we have determined to be the most correct the most amount of the time and therefore we must use it.

And yes, I agree about scholarships being a significant prize.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Oh, but that's certainly what has been implied by multiple people throughout this thread since it's inception.

Exactly the way I feel.

Here’s what I think is happening
You and SS and Dago and some others are assuming that those arguing against you are arguing FOR the opposite side
I really don’t think that’s the case
Oye is explaining his part very well and others are trying to twist it into a binary argument
Arthareal is asking questions,not picking sides
And I’m saying that y’all’s arguments about fairness are incomplete and that and the incredibly rare instances of these cases don’t support a blanket ban

Now y’all are gong to interpret that as my saying that means in 100% for inclusion in all cases- even though I haven’t said anything close to that

 

[Madmarsha]

Has this hit the Olympics yet?

 

[boutrous]

Here’s what I think is happening
You and SS and Dago and some others are assuming that those arguing against you are arguing FOR the opposite side
I really don’t think that’s the case
Oye is explaining his part very well and others are trying to twist it into a binary argument
Arthareal is asking questions,not picking sides
And I’m saying that y’all’s arguments about fairness are incomplete and that and the incredibly rare instances of these cases don’t support a blanket ban

Now y’all are gong to interpret that as my saying that means in 100% for inclusion in all cases- even though I haven’t said anything close to that

Exactly the point I'm trying to make. Some people are talking about the forest and some about the trees. Its not a difference in philosophy, per say, just a difference in supporting arguements. In the end, everyone is saying we want sport to be fair.

 

[225Saint]

When a person that's born a female transitions to being a man and has a successful career in the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL/Whatever... then and only then will I say it's fair for people that are born male to participate in female sports. Otherwise, I will always think it's an unfair advantage for a person that's born male to compete in female athletics.

If you point the transphobic finger at me, then I'll just point the sexist finger at you for thinking it's okay to take opportunities away from natural born girls by allowing born males play in sports leagues that were built to be exclusive for genders BORN female.

 

[Dago]

Here’s what I think is happening
You and SS and Dago and some others are assuming that those arguing against you are arguing FOR the opposite side
I really don’t think that’s the case
Oye is explaining his part very well and others are trying to twist it into a binary argument
Arthareal is asking questions,not picking sides
And I’m saying that y’all’s arguments about fairness are incomplete and that and the incredibly rare instances of these cases don’t support a blanket ban

Now y’all are gong to interpret that as my saying that means in 100% for inclusion in all cases- even though I haven’t said anything close to that

Excuse me but I already stated in this thread that Oye and I talked in PM and that I had misunderstood/misconstrued what he was saying in here so you can kindly remove me from your list or I will put a I VOTED FOR TRUMP sign in your yard

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Excuse me but I already stated in this thread that Oye and I talked in PM and that I had misunderstood/misconstrued what he was saying in here so you can kindly remove me from your list or I will put a I VOTED FOR TRUMP sign in your yard

You do that and I’ll tell UDS you have a crush on him

 

[Dago]

You do that and I’ll tell UDS you have a crush on him

Mexican standoff it is! Rubberband guns at 10 paces