Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (2 Viewers)

Excuse me but I already stated in this thread that Oye and I talked in PM and that I had misunderstood/misconstrued what he was saying in here so you can kindly remove me from your list or I will put a I VOTED FOR TRUMP sign in your yard
OMG, you HAVE to do it.
 
good article
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The father of a transgender daughter is capturing national attention for his impassioned plea to Missouri state lawmakers.

In a video that has gone viral on Twitter, Brandon Boulware urges Missouri legislators to reject House Joint Resolution 53, a bill which would require students to play sports on the team that reflects the sex on their birth certificates. More than 20 states are considering similar bills that would ban transgender girls from playing on girls' sports teams.

While speaking to the state legislature on March 3, Boulware introduced himself as a business lawyer, a Christian and the son of a Methodist minister, and revealed that he initially struggled to support his “wonderful and beautiful” transgender daughter.

“One thing I often hear when transgender issues are discussed is, ‘I don’t get it — I don’t understand,’” Boulware said. “I didn’t get it either. For years, I didn’t get it.”

Boulware said that he forced his daughter to wear her hair cut short and play with “boy” toys, even though she identified as a female.

“Why did I do this? To protect my child,” Boulware explained. “I did not want my daughter or her siblings to get teased. And truth be told, I did it to protect myself as well. I wanted to avoid those inevitable questions as to why my child did not look and act like a boy.”..............

Missouri Dad's moving testimony on transgender athlete ban goes viral (msn.com)

 
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good article
================

The father of a transgender daughter is capturing national attention for his impassioned plea to Missouri state lawmakers.

In a video that has gone viral on Twitter, Brandon Boulware urges Missouri legislators to reject House Joint Resolution 53, a bill which would require students to play sports on the team that reflects the sex on their birth certificates. More than 20 states are considering similar bills that would ban transgender girls from playing on girls' sports teams.

While speaking to the state legislature on March 3, Boulware introduced himself as a business lawyer, a Christian and the son of a Methodist minister, and revealed that he initially struggled to support his “wonderful and beautiful” transgender daughter.

“One thing I often hear when transgender issues are discussed is, ‘I don’t get it — I don’t understand,’” Boulware said. “I didn’t get it either. For years, I didn’t get it.”

Boulware said that he forced his daughter to wear her hair cut short and play with “boy” toys, even though she identified as a female.

“Why did I do this? To protect my child,” Boulware explained. “I did not want my daughter or her siblings to get teased. And truth be told, I did it to protect myself as well. I wanted to avoid those inevitable questions as to why my child did not look and act like a boy.”..............

Missouri Dad's moving testimony on transgender athlete ban goes viral (msn.com)



Let's not think about those other children...
 
I have to think about it some more, but I don't quite understand the argument transgender athletes are making: I feel like I am this (despite facts that prove otherwise), therefore you must treat me as this.

In what other context is that logical: to apply subjectivity when something is objective.

I feel that I am smart, so give me a Mensa membership. I identify with prestigious people, so treat me like I am prestigious.

I identify with women, so treat me like one.

Why do you expect that of me (or whomever)?

I don't get it. But I will keep trying.
 
I have to think about it some more, but I don't quite understand the argument transgender athletes are making: I feel like I am this (despite facts that prove otherwise), therefore you must treat me as this.

In what other context is that logical: to apply subjectivity when something is objective.

I feel that I am smart, so give me a Mensa membership. I identify with prestigious people, so treat me like I am prestigious.

I identify with women, so treat me like one.

Why do you expect that of me (or whomever)?

I don't get it. But I will keep trying.

Gender is not objective. It may appear that way but as a matter of chromosomes, psychology, and yes, even physiology, gender is not binary nor objective. There’s much more to it than how someone “subjectively feels”. And the reality is that we are still learning how it all works - we know far more about sex and gender now than we did when most of us on here were born.
 
Gender is not objective. It may appear that way but as a matter of chromosomes, psychology, and yes, even physiology, gender is not binary nor objective. There’s much more to it than how someone “subjectively feels”. And the reality is that we are still learning how it all works - we know far more about sex and gender now than we did when most of us on here were born.

Well... gender FEELS objective to me, so I think that means you have to treat it like it is.

/s
 
I have to think about it some more, but I don't quite understand the argument transgender athletes are making: I feel like I am this (despite facts that prove otherwise), therefore you must treat me as this.

In what other context is that logical: to apply subjectivity when something is objective.

I feel that I am smart, so give me a Mensa membership. I identify with prestigious people, so treat me like I am prestigious.

I identify with women, so treat me like one.

Why do you expect that of me (or whomever)?

I don't get it. But I will keep trying.


Gender is not objective. It may appear that way but as a matter of chromosomes, psychology, and yes, even physiology, gender is not binary nor objective. There’s much more to it than how someone “subjectively feels”. And the reality is that we are still learning how it all works - we know far more about sex and gender now than we did when most of us on here were born.

I made a post on this a while back and I think we have an issue where we call 2 different things by the same name and it makes people confused. In most circumstances, our identity and our physicality are inline. We call both of these things gender because they usually coincide, but that's not always the case. Some people's identity doesn't match their physicality. So yes, if someone's identity is female, then treat that person as a female. Why does that hurt you to do so?

However, as I said before, sport is a different because it's actually based on physicality. Yes I understand it could be based on mental aspects, but for the classification of men's sports vs women's sports, the difference is based on the physical. So while I do not struggle to treat people as they want to be treated in life / society, I'm not sold one way or another yet on sport. If it's casual sport, then whatever, but in truly competitive sport where money / scholarships are on the line, it makes for a tougher decision. Of course you don't want to be unfair to someone based on how they were born, but that goes both ways. You don't want to be unfair to females who's physicality and mentality align that they don't get a fair place to compete.
 
I made a post on this a while back and I think we have an issue where we call 2 different things by the same name and it makes people confused. In most circumstances, our identity and our physicality are inline. We call both of these things gender because they usually coincide, but that's not always the case. Some people's identity doesn't match their physicality. So yes, if someone's identity is female, then treat that person as a female. Why does that hurt you to do so?

However, as I said before, sport is a different because it's actually based on physicality. Yes I understand it could be based on mental aspects, but for the classification of men's sports vs women's sports, the difference is based on the physical. So while I do not struggle to treat people as they want to be treated in life / society, I'm not sold one way or another yet on sport. If it's casual sport, then whatever, but in truly competitive sport where money / scholarships are on the line, it makes for a tougher decision. Of course you don't want to be unfair to someone based on how they were born, but that goes both ways. You don't want to be unfair to females who's physicality and mentality align that they don't get a fair place to compete.

I think this is very close to where I stand on the issue. I'm fine with calling someone by whatever gender they want and certainly think that transgender people deserve all of the same rights that everyone else has. But, I think sport is an area where it's going to be very case specific unfortunately. The only other alternative is to eliminate the distinction between male and female sports and either have all genders compete to be able to play in various levels of a sport. But, that all seems kind of complicated. So, I'm not sure there are any easy answers here. Lots of legitimate concerns and rights to be balanced.
 

I get this joke and I think it's funny. However, it's hyperbole and not how gender identity works. Real people are struggling and it's not like they just decide to choose a tough path. People are born how they are born. They didn't ask for it and they can't help it. I feel blessed I don't struggle internally, I certainly don't condem others who do. Glass houses and all.
 
I see 3 paths forward:

Option 1: Do away with Mens vs. Womens sports. Everyone competes on the same field.

Option 2: Allow people to compete in whatever gender group they identify with.

Option 3: Allow transgender people to play recreationally in whatever group they identify with, but competitive sports groups are determined by your genetics.

#3 makes the most sense to me, though I don't think there's a perfect answer.
 
as long as we have binary classification for gender (which admittedly is generally effective 99% of the time) then we will struggle with the 1% occasions

but let's not let our 'comfort' with male/female divisions distract us from the fact that we adjust to 'unfair athletic advantage' all of the time
boxing, wrestling, judo, karate, etc etc have longer segregated along weight classifications for obvious reasons
kids sports do it along age divisions for obvious reasons - and even make adjustments when say a 9yr old dominates his age division, we move him to the next one up

and sports are nothing but unfair advantages - Shaq has an unfair athletic advantage over me as do Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps (and maybe a few others)
yes competition should be competitive, but we should be dynamic and nimble adjusting to change and not regressive and inert

We get rid of women’s teams...those with XX will have absolutely no avenue for competitive athletics. I suck at basketball...but I think I could have been a division 1 basketball player on women’s teams. I’m actually fairly confident at that. That doesn’t seem like a very inclusive strategy to me. It’s a difficult situation and I don’t think that there is an incredibly easy solution.
 
I get this joke and I think it's funny. However, it's hyperbole and not how gender identity works. Real people are struggling and it's not like they just decide to choose a tough path. People are born how they are born. They didn't ask for it and they can't help it. I feel blessed I don't struggle internally, I certainly don't condem others who do. Glass houses and all.

I think that's completely right and why I think the whole bathroom issue, for example, is completely ridiculous and misplaced.

But I do recognize that athletic competition is where it gets really complicated - perhaps its most complicated. It seems that all of the other aspects can be resolved with understanding and recognition that their transgender reality is both very real and very difficult. And ultimately it doesn't intrude on to anyone else. But athletic competition is a different dynamic - where there is a winner, there are losers.
 

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