Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (2 Viewers)

The women timed their announcement carefully, holding it the day before National Girls and Women in Sports Day, created three decades ago to promote female athletes.


Among them were trailblazers: Donna de Varona, the Olympic swimmer who lobbied for Title IX’s passage in 1972; Donna Lopiano, the former chief executive of the Women’s Sports Foundation; and Nancy Hogshead-Makar, Olympic swimmer and law professor who wrote a book on Title IX.


Before that day in early February, they were universally respected as pioneers in the long fight for women’s equality in sports. Then they unveiled their project: changing the way transgender girls and women participate in women’s sports.

Almost immediately, their proposal drew bitter criticism in the fraught debate over transgender rights.


For starters, they said, they planned to lobby for federal legislation requiring transgender girls and women, in high school sports and above, to suppress testosterone for at least one year before competing against other girls and women, making universal a policy already in place in some states and some higher levels of sports.

For transgender girls in high school who do not suppress testosterone, they suggested “accommodations,” such as separate races, podiums or teams.
They called themselves the Women’s Sports Policy Working Group........

 
The women timed their announcement carefully, holding it the day before National Girls and Women in Sports Day, created three decades ago to promote female athletes.


Among them were trailblazers: Donna de Varona, the Olympic swimmer who lobbied for Title IX’s passage in 1972; Donna Lopiano, the former chief executive of the Women’s Sports Foundation; and Nancy Hogshead-Makar, Olympic swimmer and law professor who wrote a book on Title IX.


Before that day in early February, they were universally respected as pioneers in the long fight for women’s equality in sports. Then they unveiled their project: changing the way transgender girls and women participate in women’s sports.

Almost immediately, their proposal drew bitter criticism in the fraught debate over transgender rights.


For starters, they said, they planned to lobby for federal legislation requiring transgender girls and women, in high school sports and above, to suppress testosterone for at least one year before competing against other girls and women, making universal a policy already in place in some states and some higher levels of sports.

For transgender girls in high school who do not suppress testosterone, they suggested “accommodations,” such as separate races, podiums or teams.
They called themselves the Women’s Sports Policy Working Group........


Yeah...that's unhealthy and unethical as crap. There's lots of people who think that transgender individuals shouldn't play competitive athletics against individuals with different chromosomal and therefore physiologic differences...but to go to those lengths? That's crazy
 
The fact that you don't have any trans men dominating men's sports, proves the anti-trans people's point on this.

I am as woke as they come, and support trans rights all the way, but there isn't a good way to incorporate this situation into competitive sports.

The trans movement is going to lose momentum if they don't back off this sports issue.
 
The fact that you don't have any trans men dominating men's sports, proves the anti-trans people's point on this.

I am as woke as they come, and support trans rights all the way, but there isn't a good way to incorporate this situation into competitive sports.

The trans movement is going to lose momentum if they don't back off this sports issue.
I'm sorry, but that's just a bad take. For starters, the notion that allowing trans women to compete would result in domination simply isn't borne out by reality. Women's sports aren't dominated by trans women either. As in, the number of trans women Olympic athletes to date is zero, for example. Which you'd expect; when you're selecting from a small group (trans people) for another small group (top athletes), you don't end up with a large selection of people.

But that's not to say both trans men and trans women can't be competitive. They can, and there's examples of both, including trans men, for example, Chris Mosier
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/52318558).

That's not to say there's nothing to account for in terms of competition; there is, but it clearly is something that already is, and continues to be, taken into account by the various sporting authorities, who are, to their credit, trying to account for the core values of both competition and inclusion.
 
The fact that you don't have any trans men dominating men's sports, proves the anti-trans people's point on this.

I am as woke as they come, and support trans rights all the way, but there isn't a good way to incorporate this situation into competitive sports.

The trans movement is going to lose momentum if they don't back off this sports issue.
there is ALWAYS the 'they're pushing too hard' - the old 'they're ramming gay marriage down our throats' complaint
it's well meaning, but often overstated and defensive where the best policy is to push offensive tactics
 
there is ALWAYS the 'they're pushing too hard' - the old 'they're ramming gay marriage down our throats' complaint
it's well meaning, but often overstated and defensive where the best policy is to push offensive tactics

I'm not sure that is what this is though. it is undeniable that someone who transitions to female in their late teens or later is going to have a significant biological advantage in sports where strength is a significant factor. it is not anti-trans to acknowledge it.

Honestly, I think our society places too much importance on competitive sports, so I really don't care either way, but the sports issue is going to give many fence-sitters pause, and those fence sitters are going to be who determines how much progress is made. We need them on the right side.
 
I'm sorry, but that's just a bad take. For starters, the notion that allowing trans women to compete would result in domination simply isn't borne out by reality. Women's sports aren't dominated by trans women either. As in, the number of trans women Olympic athletes to date is zero, for example. Which you'd expect; when you're selecting from a small group (trans people) for another small group (top athletes), you don't end up with a large selection of people.

But that's not to say both trans men and trans women can't be competitive. They can, and there's examples of both, including trans men, for example, Chris Mosier
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/52318558).

That's not to say there's nothing to account for in terms of competition; there is, but it clearly is something that already is, and continues to be, taken into account by the various sporting authorities, who are, to their credit, trying to account for the core values of both competition and inclusion.

I don't agree. You can't use any data we currently have to say that trans women won't dominate in athletic competition. To this date the number of trans women competing in athletics is not statically relevant. That will change though as children are more comfortable being open about their gender identity.

I'm sorry, but a person who goes through puberty with male hormones and transitions later is going to have a significant advantage over people who went through puberty with female hormones in any sport where physical strength gives an advantage. I am not saying that all trans females will dominate all cis females in every athletic competition, but all other things being equal, someone who goes through puberty with male hormones has a physical advantage over other women in most athletic sports. Sure, any woman in the WNBA would destroy a regular guy in a game of one on one, but if we were only comparing elite athletes to other elite athletes, it would be a different story.

How many gold metals would Kaitlin Jenner have won in the 1976 Olympics competing as a female?

There isn't enough data for there to be a data driven discussion on this issue, so trying to use examples just isn't relevant. In 15 years we can talk about what the data says.

But as someone who supports trans rights, i think the sports issue is bad for the overall cause.
 
I don't agree. You can't use any data we currently have to say that trans women won't dominate in athletic competition. To this date the number of trans women competing in athletics is not statically relevant. That will change though as children are more comfortable being open about their gender identity.
That's an argument for approaching things with the information we have now, and adapting it as and when it actually shifts, if it does. Which is what's already being done.

It's not an argument for excluding an already marginalised group of people from competitive sport - and you've already made the point that competitive sport is something our society places importance on - now, on the grounds of individual speculation unsupported by data about what might happen in the future, which is what you seem to be advocating for here.

I'm sorry, but a person who goes through puberty with male hormones and transitions later is going to have a significant advantage over people who went through puberty with female hormones in any sport where physical strength gives an advantage. I am not saying that all trans females will dominate all cis females in every athletic competition, but all other things being equal, someone who goes through puberty with male hormones has a physical advantage over other women in most athletic sports. Sure, any woman in the WNBA would destroy a regular guy in a game of one on one, but if we were only comparing elite athletes to other elite athletes, it would be a different story.
Even in that brief paragraph, you've raised far more complexity than you perhaps realise; putting a distinction on 'going through puberty with male hormones', for example, suggests that a trans woman who was able to take puberty blockers should be treated differently to one who wasn't.

But, again, the thing there is, there is plenty of actual scientific research that has been done, and is being done on that. Guidelines and rules are drawn up by sporting authorities based on that science.

Which is how it should be done.

If you really disagree with that, I genuinely don't know what to tell you, as I don't know what to tell anyone who doesn't agree with that. It should be clear that excluding an group of people en masse from competitive sport should be a last resort, only where it is undeniably the case that not having done so is detrimental to all. It should also be inherently clear that we should be setting rules and guidelines primarily based on what has actually happened and is happening, not on what people, often irrationally, think might happen, and it should be obvious that we do so with an approach rooted in objective science, not subjective prejudice. Do you really not agree with that?
 
That's an argument for approaching things with the information we have now, and adapting it as and when it actually shifts, if it does. Which is what's already being done.

It's not an argument for excluding an already marginalised group of people from competitive sport - and you've already made the point that competitive sport is something our society places importance on - now, on the grounds of individual speculation unsupported by data about what might happen in the future, which is what you seem to be advocating for here.


Even in that brief paragraph, you've raised far more complexity than you perhaps realise; putting a distinction on 'going through puberty with male hormones', for example, suggests that a trans woman who was able to take puberty blockers should be treated differently to one who wasn't.

But, again, the thing there is, there is plenty of actual scientific research that has been done, and is being done on that. Guidelines and rules are drawn up by sporting authorities based on that science.

Which is how it should be done.

If you really disagree with that, I genuinely don't know what to tell you, as I don't know what to tell anyone who doesn't agree with that. It should be clear that excluding an group of people en masse from competitive sport should be a last resort, only where it is undeniably the case that not having done so is detrimental to all. It should also be inherently clear that we should be setting rules and guidelines primarily based on what has actually happened and is happening, not on what people, often irrationally, think might happen, and it should be obvious that we do so with an approach rooted in objective science, not subjective prejudice. Do you really not agree with that?

clearly I draw a distinction between those who transition before puberty and those who do not.

whether you deny trans people access to sports or allow them full access, you are making a decision without data. There isnt enough data to support either position.
 
clearly I draw a distinction between those who transition before puberty and those who do not.

whether you deny trans people access to sports or allow them full access, you are making a decision without data. There isnt enough data to support either position.
What problem is being fixed?
What is the size of that problem?
What is gained if trans athletes are banned?
What is lost?
 

"We acknowledge that gender identity in sport is a highly sensitive and complex issue requiring a balance between human rights and fairness on the field of play," Smith said.

"As the New Zealand Team, we have a strong culture of .... inclusion and respect for all."

The New Zealand government offered its support.

"Laurel is a member of New Zealand’s Olympic team. We are proud of her as we are of all our athletes, and will be supporting her all the way," Minister for Sport and Recreation Grant Robertson said in a statement.
...

Hubbard's gold medal wins at the 2019 Pacific Games in Samoa, where she topped the podium ahead of Samoa's Commonwealth Games champion Feagaiga Stowers, triggered outrage in the host nation.

Samoa’s weightlifting boss said Hubbard’s selection for Tokyo would be like letting athletes “dope” and feared it could cost the small Pacific nation a medal.

Belgian weightlifter Anna Vanbellinghen said last month allowing Hubbard to compete at Tokyo was unfair for women and “like a bad joke”.



1624285623982.png
 
Last edited:
Strange how you never see trans men competing at the highest level and dominating their opponents. Very. Odd. It's almost like there's a biological unfairness baked in.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users who are viewing this thread

    Back
    Top Bottom