Ukraine (37 Viewers)

[mjcouvi]

Looks like Zelensky might be the hero here. If Putin was lying, Zelensky will be calling his bluff. If Putin holds to his word, Zelensky is a hero who saved the lives of a lot of people.

 

[Brandon13]

So without trying to make this a political discussion, but the reaction to the Biden comment is strange. People seem to be outraged and his aides are doing damage control. And I guess I understand that he has to be "diplomatic" about these things. But, I mean, he's right, right? Aren't we all thinking it? The absolute best possible result is a bullet to the head, as dark and grim as that is. That would at best move a good way toward fixing things, and at worst change nothing. But it's strange that although we're all thinking it, and it's the truth, the President isn't allowed to speak that truth.

And I guess I can see the point that verbalizing that idea maybe makes it tougher on the people who may be getting close to making it a reality - making Putin more careful, solidifying the resolve of his allies, or whatever. But, I mean, this isn't some big secret plot. He needs to be ousted, right? Preferably simply shot, but alternatively imprisoned for life for war crimes. Is this even debatable? Is there any good that can come to Russia, Ukraine, or the rest of the world by him drawing even one more breath?

I think it's probably something he shouldn't say off the cuff like that unless he's prepared to help make it a reality. He shouldn't have just dropped it in there to the surprise of everyone for it to then be walked back immediately.

 

[DaveXA]

Looks like Zelensky might be the hero here. If Putin was lying, Zelensky will be calling his bluff. If Putin holds to his word, Zelensky is a hero who saved the lives of a lot of people.

Sure, but Zelensky isn't a dictator, and he's stated as much. That would be up to their government to accept Putin's proposals. He's already on record stating under no circumstances will he accept splitting the country in two. And he's stated his country absolutely will not disarm without security guarantees from NATO. So, Russia will have to adjust their expectations is they think they'll get some sort of agreement from Ukraine.

 

[mjcouvi]

Sure, but Zelensky isn't a dictator, and he's stated as much. That would be up to their government to accept Putin's proposals. He's already on record stating under no circumstances will he accept splitting the country in two. And he's stated his country absolutely will not disarm without security guarantees from NATO. So, Russia will have to adjust their expectations is they think they'll get some sort of agreement from Ukraine.

Yes I understand, but it's at least a hopeful development and he will be seen as the savior if it works out.

 

[DaveXA]

Yes I understand, but it's at least a hopeful development and he will be seen as the savior if it works out.

We'll see. I don't see Putin being a good faith actor in any of this, so clearly I'll be skeptical of any agreement involving Putin.

 

[mjcouvi]

So Putin’s excuse for invading was that there’s a violent anti-Russian minority right across his border, right?

The vast majority of people in the Donbas region identify as Russian, and those people are being attacked he said, and that violent nazi minority are a threat to Russia itself he said. And the CIA was interfering there he said (which is probably true).

I can imagine that was his line of thinking. I imagine he believed all of the above wholeheartedly.

I suppose he could have just fabricated this whole violent anti-Russian nazis across my border thing, but what about the above reasons for invading could be definitively dismissed? None of it is reason enough to start bombing Kiev I’d say, but it seemed to be reason enough for him.

I do wonder though, once he has control of Donbas will he really be able to eliminate the nazi extremists? Will he kill them all? Or will they flee across the new Ukrainian border and start being nazis there?

If they flee and start creating havoc right over the new border Putin will have his reason to go one step further and invade Ukraine again. Can you see where this could potentially go?

It seems like a good strategy, just slowly eat away at the land next to you like a bug gnawing a leaf. The opposite of Blitzkrieg?

 

[mjcouvi]

Sure, but Zelensky isn't a dictator, and he's stated as much. That would be up to their government to accept Putin's proposals. He's already on record stating under no circumstances will he accept splitting the country in two. And he's stated his country absolutely will not disarm without security guarantees from NATO. So, Russia will have to adjust their expectations is they think they'll get some sort of agreement from Ukraine.

Zelensky won't give Donbas to Russia, no, but I doubt that matters to Putin. I think he'd be fine agreeing that they will be independent neutral states. But once they are independent they will just vote themselves into Russia like Crimea did. Of course that would infuriate Ukraine and the west, but what will they do? Putin will just shrug his shoulders.

 

[mjcouvi]

As Putin keeps hungering for more little bits, will we feed him or starve the world?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

So Putin’s excuse for invading was that there’s a violent anti-Russian minority right across his border, right?

The vast majority of people in the Donbas region identify as Russian, and those people are being attacked he said, and that violent nazi minority are a threat to Russia itself he said. And the CIA was interfering there he said (which is probably true).

I can imagine that was his line of thinking. I imagine he believed all of the above wholeheartedly.

I suppose he could have just fabricated this whole violent anti-Russian nazis across my border thing, but what about the above reasons for invading could be definitively dismissed? None of it is reason enough to start bombing Kiev I’d say, but it seemed to be reason enough for him.

All of it can be dismissed. If he was really worried about genocide of Russian speakers, he would have called for UN observers in the region, which he did not. As it stands NGO's and other international observers said there was no genocide.

There clearly is no threat to Russian territorial integrity from extremist elements within Ukraine. There was no build up of missiles, artillery or anything like that. We've seen what a threat to the territorial integrity of a nation looks like - it was when Russia sent 200,000 troops to the border of Ukraine. There was nothing comparable from Ukraine.

I'm not sure what you mean by CIA interfering... but what do you think that looks like and how was that a threat to Russian territorial integrity?

The fact of the matter, none of that was established, and any serious accusation would have followed an established process to answer Russian concerns. Which Russia failed to do. Because Russia was not worried about being invaded from Ukraine. Russia wanted to control Ukraine. And that's it.

 

[DaveXA]

So Putin’s excuse for invading was that there’s a violent anti-Russian minority right across his border, right?

The vast majority of people in the Donbas region identify as Russian, and those people are being attacked he said, and that violent nazi minority are a threat to Russia itself he said. And the CIA was interfering there he said (which is probably true).

I can imagine that was his line of thinking. I imagine he believed all of the above wholeheartedly.

I suppose he could have just fabricated this whole violent anti-Russian nazis across my border thing, but what about the above reasons for invading could be definitively dismissed? None of it is reason enough to start bombing Kiev I’d say, but it seemed to be reason enough for him.

I do wonder though, once he has control of Donbas will he really be able to eliminate the nazi extremists? Will he kill them all? Or will they flee across the new Ukrainian border and start being nazis there?

If they flee and start creating havoc right over the new border Putin will have his reason to go one step further and invade Ukraine again. Can you see where this could potentially go?

It seems like a good strategy, just slowly eat away at the land next to you like a bug gnawing a leaf. The opposite of Blitzkrieg?

I'm not really understanding your point here. What justifies Russia's invasion here? Let's suppose Putin's accusation that a violent anti-Russian minority is a threat to their security. Would that justify the invasion of a sovereign country? I would think not. Let's suppose there were a violent anti-American minority group in Canada. Would that justify us invading Canada? I would think not.

And yes, a lot of people in the eastern territories identify as Russian. If that's the case, why the heck is Russia flattening entire neighborhoods and districts in those cities in towns? You think the Russians in those areas are going to be happy with what Putin has done? I would think not.

They might be a small contingent of neo-nazis in Ukraine, but there are about as many neo-nazis there as there are here. A non-issue in Ukraine. Certainly not enough to justify much of anything from Russia. It's a completely fabricated excuse.

 

[mjcouvi]

All of it can be dismissed. If he was really worried about genocide of Russian speakers, he would have called for UN observers in the region, which he did not. As it stands NGO's and other international observers said there was no genocide.

There clearly is no threat to Russian territorial integrity from extremist elements within Ukraine. There was no build up of missiles, artillery or anything like that. We've seen what a threat to the territorial integrity of a nation looks like - it was when Russia sent 200,000 troops to the border of Ukraine. There was nothing comparable from Ukraine.

I'm not sure what you mean by CIA interfering... but what do you think that looks like and how was that a threat to Russian territorial integrity?

The fact of the matter, none of that was established, and any serious accusation would have followed an established process to answer Russian concerns. Which Russia failed to do. Because Russia was not worried about being invaded from Ukraine. Russia wanted to control Ukraine. And that's it.

OK, it can be dismissed.

There is clearly no threat, but this is political maneuvering. America does stuff in the name of threats that aren't really threats all the time. It's the first play in do-whatchyou-wanna-do playbook.

As far as CIA interference, I said that based on memory. There's no doubt that there are plenty of Americans, working for various parts of the American government, with the interest in keeping eyes on Russia, in Ukraine. American contractors, former-military, often with the stated intent that they are there for humanitarian reasons, have fought alongside the Ukrainians. The only question is to what extent.

Who's to say some of those contractors aren't working closely with the CIA. Putin may believe that, he may be right.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

So Putin’s excuse for invading was that there’s a violent anti-Russian minority right across his border, right?

The vast majority of people in the Donbas region identify as Russian, and those people are being attacked he said, and that violent nazi minority are a threat to Russia itself he said. And the CIA was interfering there he said (which is probably true).

I can imagine that was his line of thinking. I imagine he believed all of the above wholeheartedly.

I suppose he could have just fabricated this whole violent anti-Russian nazis across my border thing, but what about the above reasons for invading could be definitively dismissed? None of it is reason enough to start bombing Kiev I’d say, but it seemed to be reason enough for him.

I do wonder though, once he has control of Donbas will he really be able to eliminate the nazi extremists? Will he kill them all? Or will they flee across the new Ukrainian border and start being nazis there?

If they flee and start creating havoc right over the new border Putin will have his reason to go one step further and invade Ukraine again. Can you see where this could potentially go?

It seems like a good strategy, just slowly eat away at the land next to you like a bug gnawing a leaf. The opposite of Blitzkrieg?

If I am understanding your line of thinking correctly, you are taking the position that Putin is right about his assertions that the nazis have a foothold in Ukraine and he is the honest broker. You also seem willing to embrace the idea that the anti-Russian sentiment in the east is being orchestrated by the CIA and the Russian speaking Ukrainians need to be saved.

Has it ever occurred to you that those individuals in the "disputed" cities that identify as Russian could have been manipulated into thinking that way? Putin has had decades sow discontent within the population in those areas with actual infiltrators agitating matters.

Now what is more likely, the CIA working in Ukraine building up anti-Russian sentiment or the Kremlin sending their own operatives to Ukraine?

 

[mjcouvi]

I'm not really understanding your point here. What justifies Russia's invasion here? Let's suppose Putin's accusation that a violent anti-Russian minority is a threat to their security. Would that justify the invasion of a sovereign country? I would think not. Let's suppose there were a violent anti-American minority group in Canada. Would that justify us invading Canada? I would think not.

And yes, a lot of people in the eastern territories identify as Russian. If that's the case, why the heck is Russia flattening entire neighborhoods and districts in those cities in towns? You think the Russians in those areas are going to be happy with what Putin has done? I would think not.

They might be a small contingent of neo-nazis in Ukraine, but there are about as many neo-nazis there as there are here. A non-issue in Ukraine. Certainly not enough to justify much of anything from Russia. It's a completely fabricated excuse.

I'm not saying it's justified. In fact I think it is not justified. I'm just trying to figure out why this is happening and what might happen next. People become so blinded by Putin's evil they don't want to imagine him as brilliant. His rise to power is no Hitler story, but it's impressive. He has, in a way, been maneuvering for this since he was a child.

 

[DaveXA]

OK, it can be dismissed.

There is clearly no threat, but this is political maneuvering. America does stuff in the name of threats that aren't really threats all the time. It's the first play in do-whatchyou-wanna-do playbook.

As far as CIA interference, I said that based on memory. There's no doubt that there are plenty of Americans, working for various parts of the American government, with the interest in keeping eyes on Russia, in Ukraine. American contractors, former-military, often with the stated intent that they are there for humanitarian reasons, have fought alongside the Ukrainians. The only question is to what extent.

Who's to say some of those contractors aren't working closely with the CIA. Putin may believe that, he may be right.

So what if he's right? I mean...Cuba? Hell, we have spies up in each other's business everywhere. That really doesn't justify anything. Invading a country really isn't political maneuvering. It's war. There might be political motives, but it's common knowledge that it's long been a goal of Putin to reestablish the Soviet Union. This would just be part and parcel of his attempt to do just that.

 

[DaveXA]

I'm not saying it's justified. In fact I think it is not justified. I'm just trying to figure out why this is happening and what might happen next. People become so blinded by Putin's evil they don't want to imagine him as brilliant. His rise to power is no Hitler story, but it's impressive. He has, in a way, been maneuvering for this since he was a child.

Well, if you go back and read some of our earlier discussions in this thread, several posts touched on what might Putin's reasoning for the invasion, and most of us agreed there really wasn't any justification for his actions even based on what might be his percieved grievances. This is going back to when Russia had that massive buildup at the border.