Ukraine

SystemShock said
Besides an open mind, we need to keep an eye on facts.

What 7-8 nations joined NATO in 2004 that are right at Russia's border? I can only count 6 countries bordering Russia, and 2 of them are Belarus and Ukraine. The other 4 countries are Norway (member since 1949), Finland (joined in 2023 after Russia invaded Ukraine), plus Latvia and Estonia, who indeed joined in 2004. And remember why they joined NATO? Because they were afraid Russia wanted to reclaim them.

Russia and the U.S. were never in what you'd call a "good" or "decent" relation. You don't point hundreds of nuclear war heads at each other and have a "decent" relation, unless not being openly hostile is how "decent relation" is defined. After Russia lost the ability to keep up with the arms race, things still happened in the background, like espionage, proxy wars...

My facts were not 100% accurate, but the premise was. NATO moved in right on their borders. Many folks in Congress and around the world in Europe did not want to add these countries to NATO in fear of provoking Russia. As I referenced before, that's what killed the "decent" relations with Russia. I conceded we were never truly "friends", but the tension and threat of nuclear annelation was no where near Cold War levels. So there was a chance that the two countries could close the gap in international relations. Adding those countries to NATO in 2004 closed that door.

I'm no expert on the area in the early 2000, and neither are any of you. My position is the United States did not help relations by helping add those countries to NATO in 2004. I do not blame the US for failed diplomacy.....I understand who and what Russia is, but to pretend we did not have a hand in it all is naive and homerism. The US did it because we could and Russia was weak at the time. I just wonder if things happened differently if the world would be different today. Nobody knows that. Russia could have invaded the Baltic region if they don't get included into NATO.......or a more general peace could have happened between the US and Russia.

The United States as had a hand in so many things on the world stage since the end of WWII. Most are good and were well intentioned. Some are vile and we should be ashamed. I guess the batting average is pretty good, tho.