1918-19 global pandemic (1 Viewer)

[guidomerkinsrules]

i've listened to a few podcasts about the pandemic - you probably couldn't get a better example of Santayana's 'those who do not remember the past..."

i'm sure the historians on the board will have more insight, but here are some of the takeaways i remember:

- it's mostly called the "Spanish Flu" bc Spain was neutral in WW1 and were not bound to write 'upbeat' news- so they were the first to report on the epidemic (it most likely started either in China, US or France). Similar to our "China Virus" propaganda today, most every country tried to label it as the the disease of their enemy
- the 2nd wave was much worse than the first
- Philadelphia held a 'war bond' parade - in opposition to the advice of health officials - as the disease had already taken hold. 2 days later it began to ravage the city
- bc this was during wartime, US press was forbidden to say anything negative against the government (regardless of the truth of the reporting) and this included reporting about the Flu. in Wisconsin (i believe) a local newspaper ran a story about the Flu and the army came i and shut them down and tried to change the editors with Sedition (they did charge them, they just had to drop it as the disease spread)
- Woodrow Wilson contracted the disease while in france negotiating the surrender/peace of WW1 - he had be staunch in saying that there should be no blame, no reparations. After respiratory damage, the Flu was said to effect mental capacity/ability. Wilson was too weakened to stick to his guns and the most impacted countries sought to punish Germany and leveled extremely harsh penalties -- it's not too difficult to draw a fairly straight line from Wilson's Flu to Hitler's rise to power

 

[FootballLady]

Wow! That's fascinating. Thanks for posting!

 

[superchuck500]

This article has curve charts for many major cities. It’s interesting- and reflects what we will likely see with this as well: some places will fare much differently than others. Some of that is due to local measures, some of it isn’t.

How they flattened the curve during the 1918 Spanish Flu

Social distancing isn’t a new idea—it saved thousands of American lives during the last great pandemic. Here's how it worked.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

i do realize that "i've just listened to some podcasts" is only slightly more posh that "i've researched some youtube videos"

 

[St. Widge]

i do realize that "i've just listened to some podcasts" is only slightly more posh that "i've researched some youtube videos"

I haven't read it, but John Barry who wrote "Rising Tide" also wrote a book about the 1918 Flu Epidemic. My brother has read it and said it's really depressing because of the parallels with what is going on now, but it is well written. And for those of us too busy to read much, I think you can get it in an audio book:

Amazon product ASIN 0143036491

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I haven't read it, but John Barry who wrote "Rising Tide" also wrote a book about the 1918 Flu Epidemic. My brother has read it and said it's really depressing because of the parallels with what is going on now, but it is well written. And for those of us too busy to read much, I think you can get it in an audio book:

Amazon product ASIN 0143036491

yeah, it was him on Fresh Air that was the last one i heard and prompted the thread

 

[gavinj]

- Woodrow Wilson contracted the disease while in france negotiating the surrender/peace of WW1 - he had be staunch in saying that there should be no blame, no reparations. After respiratory damage, the Flu was said to effect mental capacity/ability. Wilson was too weakened to stick to his guns and the most impacted countries sought to punish Germany and leveled extremely harsh penalties -- it's not too difficult to draw a fairly straight line from Wilson's Flu to Hitler's rise to power

This is pretty revisionist. The US never ratified the Treaty of Versailles. We ended up negotiating our own treaty with Germany and Austria in 1921.

The rise of fascism in Italy and the stock market crash in 1929 were bigger events paving the way for Hitler than Woodrow Wilson’s bout with the flu.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

This is pretty revisionist. The US never ratified the Treaty of Versailles. We ended up negotiating our own treaty with Germany and Austria in 1921.

The rise of fascism in Italy and the stock market crash in 1929 were bigger events paving the way for Hitler than Woodrow Wilson’s bout with the flu.

so you're saying that his being a non-factor in Versailles had no impact and France, et al were going to sanction Germany regardless?

 

[gavinj]

so you're saying that his being a non-factor in Versailles had no impact and France, et al were going to sanction Germany regardless?

We reigned France an the UK in as much as we could. We even wrote the article that became the basis for reparations in an attempt to compromise. Dulles had a huge influence at that conference. Remember, the war had already ended the previous November with Germany conceding defeat. The Allies could have just started the war up again and invaded Germany, knowing that they were tapped out.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

On the economic front, cities and states that maintained lockdown protocols and social distancing guidelines longer and until cases minimized, ultimately had stronger long-term economies and a sharper economic bounce back. As they avoided a worse second wave, had a stronger climb in economic confidence, and got out of the crisis sooner.

I’ve mentioned it a lot and in more detail, and might try and find the old posts to copy it over here. But it’s an interesting economic case study that should be a shock to, and informing the logic many leaders are using to justify reopening so early under the guise of minimizing long-term economic harm.

What the Spanish Flu ultimately showed economists that studied it is that the logic that opening sooner mitigated economic harm better proved entirely paradoxical.

 

[bclemms]

The 1918 flu pandemic was made in a German lab and broadcast through radiowaves.

In all seriousness, we were so much better prepared for a pandemic back then because we weren't as urbanized and so many Americans were self sustained. Even then though, it set the stock markets back decades.

Covid is also more dangerous, not because it is more deadly but because of the 5+ day incubation period and asymptomatic spread. Spanish Flu was worse because it killed kids and people in their prime. Covid could kill more than the Spanish flu but the number of life years lost per capita it likely wont come close. This is assuming the long term impact of Covid isn't far worse than what we think.

 

[kewee]

Influenza 1918 | American Experience | PBS

It was the worst epidemic in American history, killing over 600,000 — until it disappeared as mysteriously as it had begun.

www.pbs.org

This is a really interesting documentary from PBS American Experience.

 

[SaintJ]

What the Spanish Flu ultimately showed economists that studied it is that the logic that opening sooner mitigated economic harm better proved entirely paradoxical.

I am amazed that economists were surprised that dead people make lousy workers and worse customers.

 

[SaintJ]

Also, IIRC perhaps the strongest theory is that it originated in Kansas, where the prevalence and density of hog farms, right under a key flight path for a variety of migratory birds, created optimal conditions for a cross-species jump, and then to the humans who were so directly involved in contact with the hogs (no jokes, fellas ). On top of this, a local army base, with constant transience of troops coming and going, spread the virus out quickly in a variety of directions.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

The 1918 flu pandemic was made in a German lab and broadcast through radiowaves.

In all seriousness, we were so much better prepared for a pandemic back then because we weren't as urbanized and so many Americans were self sustained. Even then though, it set the stock markets back decades.

Covid is also more dangerous, not because it is more deadly but because of the 5+ day incubation period and asymptomatic spread. Spanish Flu was worse because it killed kids and people in their prime. Covid could kill more than the Spanish flu but the number of life years lost per capita it likely wont come close. This is assuming the long term impact of Covid isn't far worse than what we think.

John Barry also mentioned that a few of the WW1 Generals understood that disease was often the big killer in war and had marshalled and outfitted ships and trains as treatment centers