2020 Census (1 Viewer)

Saint_Ward

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https://www.yahoo.com/news/states-sue-u-over-census-151424162.html

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A group of U.S. states and cities sued the Trump administration to stop it from asking people filling out 2020 census forms whether they are citizens.

The lawsuit by 17 states, Washington D.C. and six cities challenged what they called last week's "unconstitutional and arbitrary" decision by the U.S. Department of Commerce, which oversees the Census Bureau, to add the citizenship question.

It was also a fresh challenge to what New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, at a press conference announcing the lawsuit, called the administration's "anti-immigrant animus."

All of the states bringing the case have Democratic attorneys general.

They were joined by New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Seattle and Providence, Rhode Island, which all have Democratic mayors, and the U.S. Conference of Mayors. Another state, California, filed a similar lawsuit last week.

The White House and the Commerce Department did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

Required under the U.S. Constitution, the decennial census is used to determine the drawing of political boundaries, the allocation of seats in Congress and at the state and local level, and the annual distribution of about $700 billion of federal funds.

Critics of the citizenship question say it might dissuade immigrants, and perhaps many citizens, from being counted, with a disproportionate impact on Democratic-leaning states.

Supporters of the question, including Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross, say it will help the country enforce the landmark Voting Rights Act of 1965.

A citizenship question has not appeared in the census since 1950.

The lawsuit accused the Trump Administration of violating the Constitution's requirement that the government conduct an "actual enumeration" of the "whole number of persons" every 10 years.

At the press conference, Schneiderman called the citizenship question a "blatant effort" by the administration to prevent the Census Bureau from doing its job.
https://www.npr.org/2018/04/03/599159295/17-states-7-cities-sue-to-remove-2020-census-citizenship-question

the NPR link includes the 54 page complaint.

I guess I'll ask the question. Is it a big deal to add this question? What's the concern? That non citizens won't fill it out at all, thus not be counted?
 

B4YOU

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It’s about districts and money. If you shrink the population size of cities you reduce the number of districts and Reps for urban location. It also will move federal funding from blue states to red states (except Texas) due to lower population totals. This goes in line with Trump tax policy of removing SALT deductions from HCOL areas to bleed cash from blue states and cities.
 

SaintInBucLand

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To be fair the 2000 long form census sent out to 1 in every 6 households did include the citizenship question. And I honestly cannot remember anything being brought up about it.
 

B-Rich

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The "big deal" is this: without a citizenship question, ANYONE living in a state gets counted in the census: citizen and non-citizen; illegal, legal with visa or green card, etc.

And, apportioning of seats in congress (and, IIRC, many federal funding processes) is based on counts from said census, and the apportionment calculation is based upon the TOTAL resident population (citizens and non-citizens) of the 50 states.

So in theory, it wouldn't make a difference at all in apportionment.

But in reality, I think on the Democrats the fear is as you say, that non citizens won't fill it out at all, thus not be counted, perhaps lowering the count in their solid states and thus subsequent apportionment.

On the Republican side, in addition to lowering the count for states/jurisdictions with higher numbers of non-citizens (which helps them in the short 2020 term), the actual numbers which come back from this could be used in the long term; to further discussion for changes to apportionment being based upon number of CITIZENS and not RESIDENTS.

Without some data on this (from the census), it's all just "common sense": California and New York obviously have a lot more non-citizens, illegal or otherwise, than say Nebraska or Indiana, but without such a question, no one statistically knows to what degree that is.

This is not a new idea; Vitter was discussing this back when he was US Senator.
 

El Caliente

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To be fair the 2000 long form census sent out to 1 in every 6 households did include the citizenship question. And I honestly cannot remember anything being brought up about it.


I believe the outrage is that back then you didn't have the political/racial climate that we are seeing today. People are more scared about giving out personal information on that level, I mean hell, look at the polls for the Presidency 2 years ago, by all accounts Hillary had that election in the bag, but that was because people weren't forthcoming with who they were really going to pull the lever. Can you imagine someone wanting to be forthcoming with their legality when everyday citizens are paranoid about sharing who they will be voting for?


My concern in all of this is the gaps. If this does happen, and people are asked if they are here legally or not, you will either have people lying or abstaining from participating in the census (this isn't a mandatory process), so your numbers are going to be skewed. This wont draw people in so that we get a more accurate reading on who/what we have going on in this country, this will cause us to have gaps in information. And with those gaps you are looking at that trickling down to funding for education, healthcare, and other vital necessities.


Maybe if the current political climate were different that question might be looked at differently, but not in this day and age.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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https://www.yahoo.com/news/states-sue-u-over-census-151424162.html



https://www.npr.org/2018/04/03/599159295/17-states-7-cities-sue-to-remove-2020-census-citizenship-question

the NPR link includes the 54 page complaint.

I guess I'll ask the question. Is it a big deal to add this question? What's the concern? That non citizens won't fill it out at all, thus not be counted?
just listening to Nate Silver and he didn't think it was a big deal - obviously he's all about polling and getting as many numbers as you can

of course he's ignoring the context of ICE running around like storm troopers and Sara Huckabee being the one who announced it
even if this inclusion is completely benign why would any vulnerable population trust it at all?
 

staphory

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My concern in all of this is the gaps. If this does happen, and people are asked if they are here legally or not, you will either have people lying or abstaining from participating in the census (this isn't a mandatory process)...
Yes, it is. They haven’t tried to prosecute anyone for it for many years but you could be fined up to $5000 for not answering or not answering truthfully.
 

mt15

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We already have a lot of trouble getting people to participate in the census. Why make it more difficult to get participation? What could be the benefit of simply knowing whether a person is a citizen? It really doesn’t affect the purpose of the census at all.

With the current nationalism running rampant through this administration, they don’t deserve to have this looked at benignly. They have earned the mistrust.
 

sbadeaux

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Anyway

To be fair the 2000 long form census sent out to 1 in every 6 households did include the citizenship question. And I honestly cannot remember anything being brought up about it.
Doesn’t the census determine the number of representatives in the house? Also determines the electoral votes? Don’t you have to be a citizen to vote? Seems legit to me
 

sbadeaux

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Well

We already have a lot of trouble getting people to participate in the census. Why make it more difficult to get participation? What could be the benefit of simply knowing whether a person is a citizen? It really doesn’t affect the purpose of the census at all.

With the current nationalism running rampant through this administration, they don’t deserve to have this looked at benignly. They have earned the mistrust.
The Purpose of the census is to determine the population of the state and the counties/parishes for the purpose of federal funding but also for the purposes of assigning electoral votes and the number of representatives you have in the house. Don’t you have to be a citizen to vote in those elections by law . seems as though we would want to know who are not citizens so that they’re not counted giving a certain area more votes than it should have
 

porculator

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The "big deal" is this: without a citizenship question, ANYONE living in a state gets counted in the census: citizen and non-citizen; illegal, legal with visa or green card, etc.

And, apportioning of seats in congress (and, IIRC, many federal funding processes) is based on counts from said census, and the apportionment calculation is based upon the TOTAL resident population (citizens and non-citizens) of the 50 states.

So in theory, it wouldn't make a difference at all in apportionment.

But in reality, I think on the Democrats the fear is as you say, that non citizens won't fill it out at all, thus not be counted, perhaps lowering the count in their solid states and thus subsequent apportionment.

On the Republican side, in addition to lowering the count for states/jurisdictions with higher numbers of non-citizens (which helps them in the short 2020 term), the actual numbers which come back from this could be used in the long term; to further discussion for changes to apportionment being based upon number of CITIZENS and not RESIDENTS.

Without some data on this (from the census), it's all just "common sense": California and New York obviously have a lot more non-citizens, illegal or otherwise, than say Nebraska or Indiana, but without such a question, no one statistically knows to what degree that is.

This is not a new idea; Vitter was discussing this back when he was US Senator.
That is interesting that representation is based on residents and not citizens. Never knew that. So basically citizens in states with large non-citizen populations have greater representation with their votes, as they are voting on behalf of the non-citizens.

Assuming that is true, it seems like a loophole that should be addressed. This loophole helps the democrats so they don't want to lose it. Can't blame them, as every other "quirk" in the voting process massively favors republicans.
 

insidejob

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The Purpose of the census is to determine the population of the state and the counties/parishes for the purpose of federal funding but also for the purposes of assigning electoral votes and the number of representatives you have in the house. Don’t you have to be a citizen to vote in those elections by law . seems as though we would want to know who are not citizens so that they’re not counted giving a certain area more votes than it should have
So we shouldn't count convicted felons who haven't had their rights restored yet or people who are here legally but not citizens yet because they haven't completed the process? You don't want to count them then don't take any tax dollars from them either.
 

porculator

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So we shouldn't count convicted felons who haven't had their rights restored yet or people who are here legally but not citizens yet because they haven't completed the process? You don't want to count them then don't take any tax dollars from them either.
Well convicted felons are still citizens and should count. Their voting rights are a separate legislative issue.

As for non-citizens, I would argue that permanent residents with a green card should be counted, but no one with temporary status should be. The fact that we have so many people permanently living here on temporary status is, again, a separate legislative issue that needs to be fixed.
 

insidejob

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Well convicted felons are still citizens and should count. Their voting rights are a separate legislative issue.



As for non-citizens, I would argue that permanent residents with a green card should be counted, but no one with temporary status should be. The fact that we have so many people permanently living here on temporary status is, again, a separate legislative issue that needs to be fixed.


I can agree with that except for people in the process of getting their permanent status solidified and paying taxes. There should be no taxation without representation. DC's license plates need to be taken seriously and they should also be represented.

I guess my feelings about it are if you're paying taxes, you should be counted. If you're not being counted, you shouldn't be forced to pay taxes. I don't know that there's a simple legislative solution to it but either way, as a "former felon" who paid taxes for the decade while I was on paper for simple possession that they bumped up to possession with intent because St. Tammany isn't called St. Slammany for nothing, it really sucked paying not only taxes but $35,000 in fines and fees over that time span and I had no voice in the political process that was ******* me over the whole time.

My sister married someone from Brazil who got his greencard via their marriage, but he paid taxes for the however many years he was here on a work visa prior to their marriage and he was just as, if not more, voiceless than I was while on probation for that decade. And don't get me started on the harassment they went through with his greencard process with him being detained and threatened with deportation while ICE basically accused my sister - who just so happened to work for the nonprofit NAF (National Abortion Federation) during the Bush administration - of scamming the system after they'd been married for 22 months and together for 4 and a half years, living together in Washington DC during and after she went to GWU for her undergrad and masters degrees because the post office delivered a certified letter to a wrong address for an appointment that never got forwarded to them. It was terrifying for me and I was 1500 miles away.

The system is ****ed and immigrants are treated as subhuman by our government - and so are their friends and families who are even citizens. I don't see any empathy for people who come here legally and do it the right way just because some don't. We are all mutts in this country. That's supposed to be what we were built for and stand on.
 

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