3-4 Under Front (Position Analysis) (1 Viewer)

One issue I have is that you don't have your best players on the football field. Why would you take out Hicks or Bunkley (and I'm talking base here) and put in Walker? I think we are trying to pigeon hole Hicks and I think that's exactly what we don't want to do. I think he can play the 1-tech, 3-tech, or DE in a 3-4. I wouldn't look where he played this past season and use that as indication where he will play this upcoming season.. A good example would be how the Ravens use Ngata and how the Pats use Wilfork, you'll both of them at DE or DT on any given snap. We are talking as if Hicks can't get upfield and I absolutely disagree with that notion. He's probably the most well-rounded defensive lineman we have right now - he's only being held back my lack of experience and technique.

Right now as it stands, Hicks and Jordan have to be your DEs with Bunkley at DT.
 
For the sake of the WILB should the end demand attention from the offensive guard and tackle for the WILB to be effective. If the guard or tackle get on Vilma he is done. Looking at the last 2 years Galette rarely ever stands up when we run 3 down he is always in the position of a lineman, and I think he is better on the left side opposed to the right.
 
One issue I have is that you don't have your best players on the football field. Why would you take out Hicks or Bunkley (and I'm talking base here) and put in Walker? I think we are trying to pigeon hole Hicks and I think that's exactly what we don't want to do. I think he can play the 1-tech, 3-tech, or DE in a 3-4. I wouldn't look where he played this past season and use that as indication where he will play this upcoming season.. A good example would be how the Ravens use Ngata and how the Pats use Wilfork, you'll both of them at DE or DT on any given snap. We are talking as if Hicks can't get upfield and I absolutely disagree with that notion. He's probably the most well-rounded defensive lineman we have right now - he's only being held back my lack of experience and technique.

Right now as it stands, Hicks and Jordan have to be your DEs with Bunkley at DT.

I agree with you about Hicks

I noticed the same but i think it was by design. It appears that he teaches arm extention because as you notice he does a very good job@ keeping himself clean. Protects his legs(kansas city) from cut blocks...hes pretty good. When asked to get upfield hes done it. The batted pass, the cam newton sack, the near tackle of Blunt were all plays he was asked to shoot his gap. The other plays were plays where he was asked to read/react.

It seems truth be told that Hicks because of his skillset and size can play every position along the 3-4 under front.




I'm just taking the quote below literally and applying it to my decision making.

I'm all for adding fronts that simply teach guys new places to stand without actually changing everything they're doing. In most cases, the fronts are exactly the same, but with different personnel.

So i tried my best to fit everyone according to what they were being asked to do the last two years.

For instance. Had we retained 3G the following year tez would have been our Starting SOLB IMHO. His responsibilities would have been the same as what he will be asked to do in the 3-4 under. He got a little practice as a pass rusher by playing DE so it matches with his skill set a little more. Set the edge, cover, then rush the passer.

Same thing with Jordan and Hicks. Building off of what they were being asked to do last year Jodan back to even 3G's days was being asked to play the hard 5. Hicks last year was being asked to play the 1.


Im just thinking in a way that makes the transition as seamless as possible. Thats not to say i don't think hicks could play the RDE. However that creates a hole@ NT behind bunkley.


Also as i said im going based off an article i read that the Saints felt as though they had their two NT's for this front in house. Who else could they have been talking about than Hicks and Bunkley? They manned the 1tech all season between the both of them. Its a strength on the D@ this point.

A combo of Jordan/ Bunkley or Jordan/ Hicks accomplishes that.

Cam would be beastly from that position. The run stopping on the weakside becomes a strength with these two on this side.



i mentioned the lineup is ENT


End would be DE playing 5 tech. Thats Cam Jordan/Will Smith rotation
Nose would be Hicks/Bunkley playing 1 Tech
Tackle would be a toss up between Floyd/Richardson/Jones with Tyrunn Walker and Tom Johnson as competition.
 
I agree with you about Hicks






I'm just taking the quote below literally and applying it to my decision making.



So i tried my best to fit everyone according to what they were being asked to do the last two years.

For instance. Had we retained 3G the following year tez would have been our Starting SOLB IMHO. His responsibilities would have been the same as what he will be asked to do in the 3-4 under. He got a little practice as a pass rusher by playing DE so it matches with his skill set a little more. Set the edge, cover, then rush the passer.

Same thing with Jordan and Hicks. Building off of what they were being asked to do last year Jodan back to even 3G's days was being asked to play the hard 5. Hicks last year was being asked to play the 1.


Im just thinking in a way that makes the transition as seamless as possible. Thats not to say i don't think hicks could play the RDE. However that creates a hole@ NT behind bunkley.


Also as i said im going based off an article i read that the Saints felt as though they had their two NT's for this front in house. Who else could they have been talking about than Hicks and Bunkley? They manned the 1tech all season between the both of them. Its a strength on the D@ this point.

A combo of Jordan/ Bunkley or Jordan/ Hicks accomplishes that.

Cam would be beastly from that position. The run stopping on the weakside becomes a strength with these two on this side.



i mentioned the lineup is ENT


End would be DE playing 5 tech. Thats Cam Jordan/Will Smith rotation
Nose would be Hicks/Bunkley playing 1 Tech
Tackle would be a toss up between Floyd/Richardson/Jones with Tyrunn Walker and Tom Johnson as competition.
I get your point and I see what your trying to do, but I have one fundamental difference in it: you are trying to plug our players into the scheme in the article. Now I will say, it's great for football conversation and debate, and that's great for SSR in my opinion, but I'm not sure how realistic it is. We just got rid of a DC who tried to plug players into a scheme that doesn't fit them. The good thing about the NFL is that no two schemes will ever the be same. Rex Ryan will bring his scheme from Dallas to NOLA, but it will be different because there are different player with different skill sets. You tailor the scheme to the talent you have on your roster.

Look at it like this, if Hicks and Bunkley are perceived to both be DTs then you tailor your scheme to fit that, especially with Hicks ability to play all over the line. It actually opens things up for the DC more and he's able to do different things - where with a player like Bunkley, he HAS to be at DT and can't play DE. Heck if it was up to me, I'd clone Hicks a couple of times and have a 320 pound DT who can take on double teams, play the run, and push the pocket starting in all three spots - I'm not sure how you take a guy like that off the field.

Another thing, I'm not sure we'll be asking players to do what they were doing last season, I think we'll be asking them to do what they are good at, and in my opinion, between last year and this year, those are two totally different things. That alone will make our defense better.
 
It was a 2gap 3-4 with the lb's on the bubble taking on guards.

In the under as shown above the WILB is covered up by the NT and RDE. The SILB has to take on the guard head up.
Lol I got so many dislikes, I was just asking. Thanks for explaining it to me I'm not a guru at the defensive schemes.
 
I need to grasp the under scheme a lil better, but as Ive said before, I think D line is our strongest level as we transition to the 3-4. IMO, Cam, Bunk and Hicks will be fine in it. Tom Johnson, Walker, and Will Smith (if he stays) all add depth.

Starters: Cam, Bunk, Hicks

Draft: 1) Sheldon Richardson. Im just not a big fan of drafting a DT/DE. But from what Ive read on SR, many think Richardson is simply a heck of a football player. we could use a few of those!



For comparison purposes, here is RRs Cowboy D depth chart from 2012:

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=stathead><TD colSpan=5>Base 3-4 D</TD></TR><TR class=colhead><TD>POSITION</TD><TD>STARTER</TD><TD>2nd</TD><TD>3rd</TD><TD>4th</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>LDE</TD><TD>Marcus Spears</TD><TD>Tyrone Crawford</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>NT</TD><TD>Sean Lissemore</TD><TD>Brian Schaefering</TD><TD>Jay Ratliff</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>RDE</TD><TD>Jason Hatcher</TD><TD>Rob Callaway</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>LOLB</TD><TD>Anthony Spencer</TD><TD>Victor Butler</TD><TD>Kyle Wilber</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>LILB</TD><TD>Dan Connor</TD><TD>Brady Poppinga</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>RILB</TD><TD>Ernie Sims</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>ROLB</TD><TD>DeMarcus Ware</TD><TD>Alex Albright</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>CB</TD><TD>Brandon Carr</TD><TD>Mike Jenkins</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>SS</TD><TD>Danny McCray</TD><TD>Eric Frampton</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>FS</TD><TD>Gerald Sensabaugh</TD><TD>Charlie Peprah</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>CB</TD><TD>Morris Claiborne</TD><TD>Sterling Moore</TD><TD>Michael Coe</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

(Props to ESPN on this one!)


To me, the LB level is not as certain as the D line, due to uncertainty as to how well they transition, and possible cuts ( and why drafting Richardson makes good sense to anchor the D line in front of them). But I really like the Victor Butler move! I think he can help solidify the LB corps. Like you, IMO, he can play either position on the outside at LB and knows the RR scheme, playing under him with the Cowboys the last 2 years. Im just not sold on Tez and/or Hawthorne playin on the strongside. But I feel better with Butler there as the starter in the base 3-4 until we see what the the others can do.

Starters: Butler, C Lo, Hawthorne, Galette (Thunder Package)

Draft: With Butler holding down the SOLB spot, and Juniors ability to rush from either side, we can get the best passrushing/playmaker on the board. That player wont have to start, but will come in on nickel and dime packages. That opens the door at 1 for:
Mingo, maybe the fastest off the edge,
Ansah, maybe the most athletic,
Jarvis Jones, IMO the best natural playmaker, or
Dion Jordan, who can rush AND drop in coverage to take away the TE.

So how about a platoon of LBs in Nickel and Dime situations:

Junior (can rush from the strongside), Vilma (still maybe best LB we have in coverage), Tez (I think he'd beast as an inside blitzer, and any one of the above OLBs comin from the weakside.

(Lightning Package)

RR likes multiple looks and sets, so once he gets a feel for who can do what, he'll move em around, and mix n match em.


When it comes to the DBs, I dont have a clue as to what scheme RR will run: man, zone or combo, who will play where, what their responsibilities will be, and if they can be effective in their roles.

For now, what we DO know is that ANY DB group is only as good as its passrush, that what we do with the front 7 is important, because we NEED a passrush........


and that Johnny Patrick didnt fit.
 
I agree with your post, except draft needs, we will be in nickel or dime a lot, especially if teams are throwing to catch up. we have poor choices for a 3rd corner and he will play a lot of downs and we need one early in the draft because in FA they are expensive. also worried about jenkins never getting to the spot over the top to help the corners or make a play, he is always late or out of position or missing a tackle.
 
I just can't help but see Hicks as a DE in our system. I love him at the 3-tech shade. Bunkley is a perfect 1-tech. Leave it be, and focus on the linebackers and secondary. Hicks will play NT on passing downs anyway.
 
With as much as we play nickel (2-4-5) I still can't justify a first round pick along the d-line. Ryan made the 287 pound Ratliff work at NT (who coincidently might get released), Bunkley is the perfect 1-tech. Hicks brings Ngata size and possibly better explosion at 3-tech and Jordan was born to play 5-tech. And one of those guys, likely Bunkley, is off the field half the time. Drafting a DT/DE is just poor value any way you slice it.

Meanwhile we don't know how our linebackers will fully transition and if we can't get a pass rush we are screwed. Yeah I like some of the fits but there are still question marks. It's almost make sense to draft a CB or S in the first but I keep on going back to our OLB's transitioning and that if it doesn't work out it doesn't matter who we have in the secondary they'll still be bad. We are finally in a good position to draft an impact pass rusher, lets not waste it.
 
With as much as we play nickel (2-4-5) I still can't justify a first round pick along the d-line. Ryan made the 287 pound Ratliff work at NT (who coincidently might get released), Bunkley is the perfect 1-tech. Hicks brings Ngata size and possibly better explosion at 3-tech and Jordan was born to play 5-tech. And one of those guys, likely Bunkley, is off the field half the time. Drafting a DT/DE is just poor value any way you slice it.

Meanwhile we don't know how our linebackers will fully transition and if we can't get a pass rush we are screwed. Yeah I like some of the fits but there are still question marks. It's almost make sense to draft a CB or S in the first but I keep on going back to our OLB's transitioning and that if it doesn't work out it doesn't matter who we have in the secondary they'll still be bad. We are finally in a good position to draft an impact pass rusher, lets not waste it.
i really agree with what you are saying, but you have to draft a CB high i think, because the good ones are such great athletes, and cover CBs run fast.

also OLB rushers are deep, very deep in this draft and we can find one later that might be as good, I am worried about a 230lb 6'4" OLB, look at the ravens or other 3-4 teams, and the "tweeners" are heavyier, sometimes a little shorter but not that light., so it might take a few years to get their weight up if they can even play the position, for that reason I would risk lower picks and take 2 of them, we need 2 anyway.
 
i really agree with what you are saying, but you have to draft a CB high i think, because the good ones are such great athletes, and cover CBs run fast.

also OLB rushers are deep, very deep in this draft and we can find one later that might be as good, I am worried about a 230lb 6'4" OLB, look at the ravens or other 3-4 teams, and the "tweeners" are heavyier, sometimes a little shorter but not that light., so it might take a few years to get their weight up if they can even play the position, for that reason I would risk lower picks and take 2 of them, we need 2 anyway.

I agree. And the Cowboys and Browns have certainly invested a lot in their secondaries. However, other than Jordan and I guess you could argue Hicks/Wilson, we really haven't invested much via the draft in our front 7 and this year we are making a fundamental change in it.

We've invested a lot in our secondary over the years but I guess it's proving to be all for nothing. Robinson is the definition of inconsistent, we just cut Patrick, White started to look good in Spags zone but I doubt he'll hold up in man-to-man, and Jenkins is not a safety. IAQ is the only bright young spot in it.

I know I've been ardent on drafting front 7 but we really can't go wrong drafting in our secondary either. I think it just hit me how much of a mess it is back there.
 

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