7 year old girl murdered in Houston (1 Viewer)

[Flipx99]

We need to walk our talk
Fighting nazis? No internment camps
Fighting USSR? no HUAC
Fighting fundamentalism? No fundamentalism

I get the point that dogmatism is dangerous regardless of the form, but Christianity and Islam are not equivalent.

Whereas a Christian fundamentalist is likely to believe that a gay couple should not be able to lawfully marry, an Islamic fundamentalist is likely to believe that they should be thrown from a roof.

I can freely depart from the congregation of the First Baptist Church of Podunk. A Muslim, however, becomes an apostate at the risk of losing his life.

An adultress in a Christian community runs the risk of some serious slut shaming. An Islamist may very well believe that Allah mandates that the adultress be stoned to death. Yes, you can find a similar injunction in the Old Testament, but most Christians are probably not even aware of that.

Christianity has been through a lot of scrutiny from the outside and as a result the way it is practiced has been modified.

Islam needs to go through similar scrutiny, and IMO this whataboutism really is not helpful. We need to stop pretending that Christianity is stuck in the same place Islam is.

 

[SystemShock]

Back in the 80's, I was watching a show, I think it was Nightline... they were talking about the death penalty, and one of the guests was the lawyer for a man who was recently executed by lethal injection for kidnapping, raping multiple times, then killing a young woman. With indignation in his voice, he recalled the last words of the executed, "I am not an animal", words he kept repeating until the drugs hit. And as the lawyer was going through his spiel about inhumanity, injustice, and the terror on the executed's face and such, I wished I could ask him, if he knew the last words of the young woman his client kidnapped, raped, and murdered, and what she felt when she was being raped and murdered.

There is a line in the movie Unforgiven, when Munny tells The Kid (going by memory) "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take everything he's got, everything he'll ever have".

Justice is defined as fairness, equity... . how do you reconcile someone who's taken everything a person is, everything they are going to be? How do you balance that level of pain and suffering inflicted on a person?

 

[49erKiller]

the racial overtones are quite obvious.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I get the point that dogmatism is dangerous regardless of the form, but Christianity and Islam are not equivalent.

Whereas a Christian fundamentalist is likely to believe that a gay couple should not be able to lawfully marry, an Islamic fundamentalist is likely to believe that they should be thrown from a roof.

I can freely depart from the congregation of the First Baptist Church of Podunk. A Muslim, however, becomes an apostate at the risk of losing his life.

An adultress in a Christian community runs the risk of some serious slut shaming. An Islamist may very well believe that Allah mandates that the adultress be stoned to death. Yes, you can find a similar injunction in the Old Testament, but most Christians are probably not even aware of that.

Christianity has been through a lot of scrutiny from the outside and as a result the way it is practiced has been modified.

Islam needs to go through similar scrutiny, and IMO this whataboutism really is not helpful. We need to stop pretending that Christianity is stuck in the same place Islam is.

what's curious about this is that you are championing all the progress the 'West' has made (your examples are less about what Christianity has done and more about how its adapted to secular humanism), but you spend most of your time on this board mocking progressive politics
do you find that curious as well?

my 10 yr old likes to tease his 4yr old brother when he beats him in races or any other 'win' his 6 year headstart would almost guarantee i try to caution him about perspective, so far he is unconvinced

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Back in the 80's, I was watching a show, I think it was Nightline... they were talking about the death penalty, and one of the guests was the lawyer for a man who was recently executed by lethal injection for kidnapping, raping multiple times, then killing a young woman. With indignation in his voice, he recalled the last words of the executed, "I am not an animal", words he kept repeating until the drugs hit. And as the lawyer was going through his spiel about inhumanity, injustice, and the terror on the executed's face and such, I wished I could ask him, if he knew the last words of the young woman his client kidnapped, raped, and murdered, and what she felt when she was being raped and murdered.

There is a line in the movie Unforgiven, when Munny tells The Kid (going by memory) "it's a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take everything he's got, everything he'll ever have".

Justice is defined as fairness, equity... . how do you reconcile someone who's taken everything a person is, everything they are going to be? How do you balance that level of pain and suffering inflicted on a person?

you're not considering Munny's caution from the state's POV
yes, take the killer off the chess board, but deciding to take someone's life is something that most of us have decided the state should not have the power to do

consider also that we can usually boil down the 'why' of crime into 2 broad categories:
the person is 'bad' or the person's environment fostered the 'bad'
so either we are choosing to execute someone b/c they were born that way or b/c we didn't do enough to improve the conditions the person grew up in (and no i'm not just talking financial condition but that's certainly one)

 

[RazorOye]

I get the point that dogmatism is dangerous regardless of the form, but Christianity and Islam are not equivalent.

Whereas a Christian fundamentalist is likely to believe that a gay couple should not be able to lawfully marry, an Islamic fundamentalist is likely to believe that they should be thrown from a roof.

I can freely depart from the congregation of the First Baptist Church of Podunk. A Muslim, however, becomes an apostate at the risk of losing his life.

there are references here to: dogma, Islam, throwing gays off a roof, and apostasy.

Is the insinuation that an Islamist - a 'true' one - needs to endorse the dogma of throwing gays off of a roof or burying two adulterers up to their heads in the middle of a soccer stadium in Afghanistan and stoning them in front of a huge crowd otherwise they are apostates who would face death at the hands of bona fide Muslims?

What is a "fundamentalist" Muslim? And is that "fundamentalist" Muslim a true Muslim? And can only these "fundamentalist" Muslims be Muslim and all others are not?

And if we are drawing a comparison to "fundamentalist" Christian, is a "fundamentalist" Christian a true Christian? And can only these "fundamentalist" Christians be Christians while other Christians are not?

to add:

I think to compare them side by side, pretending that Christians blowing up abortion clinics and Muslims throwing homosexuals off of roofs is equal in frequency (globally speaking, of course) is not a constructive approach, either. So I'm not arguing that they are comparable or that there isn't something that dangerous and problematic that some Muslims believe and put into practice in the world.

But I also think, on the other side, making these sorts of conflations is not helpful, either.

I mentioned in the other thread about generalizing and stereotyping entire groups of people. If Muslim antipathy is so murderously violent toward homosexuals, why aren't there more assaults by the former toward the latter? We have a half million Muslims in the Greater Toronto Area and I would guess at least that many homosexuals (over 6 million total population, and Toronto is a place where many homosexuals come to feel accepted or feel less threatened) with gay neighborhoods and festivals.

And despite that, the greatest attack toward homosexuals, in terms of murder, was a white man, Bruce McArthur, serial killer of homosexual men for as long as 40 years, police think.

Also, most of the 8 victims they have found so far were dark skinned Middle Eastern/Muslim (3 from Sri Lanka, 2 from Afghanistan, 1 from Turkey). The other two were white men from Ontario.

Additionally, crimes and violence against Muslim Canadians have spiked in recent years. They are far more often, here, to be victims of violence for being Muslim than Muslims are attacking non-Muslims.

I realize Canada isn't Afghanistan. But does that mean that all of these Muslims here are not 'real' Muslims?

I wrote about empathy in the other thread and one of the things is battling against extreme assumptions and stereotypes. When people buy into a belief that every Muslim (or Sikh, because often people don't or can't distinguish) is a terrorist who wants to blow them up or throw a gay off a building, then there's not a lot of hope to move forward for either group.

And I don't think you can make the argument for people to 'get real about the Muslim threat' and then turn around and exaggerate it in such a way, employing stereotypes to prey on people's paranoia, because that's not being "real about the Muslim threat" either

 

[RazorSaint]

But....muh narrative

Maybe this is an opportunity for self-reflection for some people. Maybe we can openly wonder why the media pushed this story, and why it is currently the hottest thread on the EE. I mean there were 280 murders in Houston last year. How many did you hear about? How many were a popular topic of discussion on the EE? But oh man, white guy in a red pickup truck murders a little black girl in Texas. That's juicy, I gotta admit. I know that was some tasty bait for several people on the EE.

RIP to the little girl, who we never would have heard about if it wasn't reported that the murderer was a white man.

 

[Surviving Saint]

RIP to the little girl, who we never would have heard about if it wasn't reported that the murderer was a white man.

Preach. Its the same as that bowling alley getting shot up. It wasn't a white guy with an Ar15 so it doesn't matter.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Maybe this is an opportunity for self-reflection for some people. .

indeed

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

I think there's something here to discuss, but wrapped, such as it is, in the condemnation and judgments and "bait", eh, not so much. Fwiw, I only saw a couple of references to the racial dynamic in this thread that I can recall. And one of those, from JE, isn't someone I think most here would describe as lured by such 'tasty bait'. Most of the thread seemed to be more a discussion of the generally punitive/justice/etc. I didn't see a lot of obsession with or over the skin color of the assailant when it was suspected he was white. So I don't think there was a need for some of that in the middle.

Then again, maybe that, too, is an opportunity for some self-reflection.

The invocation to the little girl's death was a nice punctuating flourish.

I think 'self reflection' and sentiments for the little girl are worthwhile.

What happened in the middle? Not so much.

And I know you're better than that. No need to pander to those who aren't

Maybe not so much on here were there racial overtones but out on the interwebs there certainly was.

 

[RazorSaint]

I think there's something here to discuss, but wrapped, such as it is, in the condemnation and judgments and "bait", eh, not so much. Fwiw, I only saw a couple of references to the racial dynamic in this thread that I can recall. And one of those, from JE, isn't someone I think most here would describe as lured by such 'tasty bait'. Most of the thread seemed to be more a discussion of the generally punitive/justice/etc. I didn't see a lot of obsession with or over the skin color of the assailant when it was suspected he was white. So I don't think there was a need for some of that in the middle.

Then again, maybe that, too, is an opportunity for some self-reflection.

The invocation to the little girl's death was a nice punctuating flourish.

I think 'self reflection' and sentiments for the little girl are worthwhile.

What happened in the middle? Not so much.

And I know you're better than that. No need to pander to those who aren't

I read this comment, then went back and read all 5 pages and there were plenty of mentions of race. In fact, someone said "hold on, maybe this wasn't about race" and someone accused them of engaging in "mental gymnastics".

You would be crazy to deny that this was a media sensation, and also a topic on the EE, because the alleged shooter was white. You can point the finger at me for "invoking the little girl's death", but you should be pointing your finger at the media, and wondering why they pushed this story. It wasn't because they're concerned about gang violence.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

But....muh narrative


RIP to the little girl, who we never would have heard about if it wasn't reported that the murderer was a white man.

Perhaps. I think the media is certainly guilty of fueling the racial fire in our current political atmosphere but I tend to think that this was reported on more due to the fact that an innocent child was (seemingly; initially) so randomly gunned down sicario style on an American freeway....that kind of thing is not a regular occurrence in this country regardless of the race of the perpetrator.

 

[SystemShock]

you're not considering Munny's caution from the state's POV
yes, take the killer off the chess board, but deciding to take someone's life is something that most of us have decided the state should not have the power to do

In the particular case I mentioned, I first considered the POV of the young woman who was deprived of her freedom, raped multiple times, then murdered (IIRC, she was stabbed and left to bleed to death).

consider also that we can usually boil down the 'why' of crime into 2 broad categories:
the person is 'bad' or the person's environment fostered the 'bad'
so either we are choosing to execute someone b/c they were born that way or b/c we didn't do enough to improve the conditions the person grew up in (and no i'm not just talking financial condition but that's certainly one)

In the particular case I mentioned, I think we chose to execute someone because he kidnapped, raped (multiple times), then stabbed a young woman and left her to bleed to death.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I read this comment, then went back and read all 5 pages and there were plenty of mentions of race. In fact, someone said "hold on, maybe this wasn't about race" and someone accused them of engaging in "mental gymnastics".
.

it was random
no wait he was drunk
no way it was 7am, he was a tweaker
that's somehow a more solid take than 'it was racial'?

 

[Tapxe]

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/06/6826...th-murder-in-death-of-7-year-old-jazmine-barn

Police initially said that a white man in a red pickup truck pulled up beside the car and opened fire. A tip from the public helped police identify Black, who is African American. He is now in custody in East Harris County.

Police say they do not think Barnes' family was the intended target of the shooting, calling the death a possible "result of mistaken identity."

Off by 20 years and race, this might qualify as reverse bias.