90% of the forum is overcomplicating things (1 Viewer)

[VDK]

The Saints produced 600 yards of offense, 300 of it in the first half. They held onto the ball for 33:33. We produced 29 first downs, were 50% on 3rd down conversions (league average is below 40%). We had only 4 penalties, only one of which was arguably critical (the Jahri Evans hold).

Defensively, prior to the 4th quarter the Saints, through aggressive defensive play-calling, had stuffed the run and held the Bengals to 10 points, 7 of it coming on one busted coverage play. This despite numerous turnovers.

Prior to the 4th quarter the Bengals had only produced 220 total yards. 112 of Chad Johnson's yards came in the 4th quarter as well as 44 of Rudi Johnson's yards. Put differently, going into the 4th, Rudi Johnson had 67 yards rushing, Chad Johnson 68 yards recieving.



No, let me make this real simple.

If we do not throw interceptions in the end zone. If we are leading 24-10 going into the 4th. The defense plays softer because it can ignore the run. Chad Johnson does not just destroy us for 112 yards on 2 deep passes because we have deep safety help. This is a different game.

That's it. That's all there is to it. It's fine to discuss individual performances, I enjoy it. Dissecting what happened to Fred Thomas/Josh Bullocks is fine. I agree with that.

But the secret to the game is very clear.

1) We did not have poor play-calling. We had good Time of Possession. We kept the Bengals off the field. We moved the ball extremely well. Payton did not call "Interception in the End Zone". Those were bad decisions. They occur.

2) The defense wasn't as awful as it's being made out to be. The defense is not particularly good. But they are plenty good enough. They held a Cinncinati offense that doused a very good San Diego defense to 10 points and not many yards for 3 quarters. Things were bound to break down eventually. The offense had to help the defense out by getting a lead. It's a lot easier to play defense with a lead. We play softer, put safeties over the top, largely ignore the run, Chad Johnson doesn't go crazy, we get a better pass rush. Things are different.

3) Same with Freddie T. Expecting Freddie T to man up on Chad Johnson for 4 quarters is ridiculous. Better CBs then him have been victimized by Chad Johnson. He needed safety help, but the defense was rarely in a position to consistently give it to him (and Bullocks blew the help anyways when it was supposed to be there). Freddie T did get burned. It's not that suprising though and he shouldn't be cut. Again, we play with a lead in the 4th and this probably isn't even discussed.

4) What does Simoneau have to do with Chad Johnson getting 112 yards and 2 TDs in the 4th quarter? How on earth does Danny Clark affect this?

So chill out folks. This is simple. Don't throw two picks in the end zone. Since Drew Brees rarely does this, I suspect the problem will be fixed.

It's ok folks. It's ok.

All season long this defense has given up big plays; today was no different and to say that if we were leading 24-10 things would have been different is pure conjecture. (See Saints vs Philly this year.) Today, as has been the case all season, the defense gave up big plays that cost us the game. Despite Brees two endzone ints, we were still in the game 10-10 until the defense gave up three big plays to Johnson and Cincy went up 24-10 early in the 4th. Turnovers hurt us, but don't discount our weaknesses on defense that have plagued us all season. The critical question: can the offense continue to bail out the defense? The last two weeks it could not.

We lost the game during this series of plays in my opinion (no turnovers were involved):

Fourth Quarter
New Orleans Saints continued...
2-2-CIN6 (15:00) D.McAllister left tackle to CIN 5 for 1 yard (C.Miller, J.Thornton).
3-1-CIN5 (14:22) D.McAllister left guard to CIN 6 for -1 yards (J.Smith).
4-2-CIN6 (13:43) J.Carney 24 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-K.Houser, Holder-J.Martin.
CIN 10 NO 10, Plays: 11 Yards: 74 Possession: 6:33.

New Orleans Saints at 13:39
J.Carney kicks 60 yards from NO 30 to CIN 10. C.Perry to CIN 22 for 12 yards (C.McIntyre).
Cincinnati Bengals at 13:33
1-10-CIN22 (13:33) R.Johnson right guard to CIN 23 for 1 yard (H.Thomas, S.Fujita).
2-9-CIN23 (12:59) R.Johnson right guard to CIN 25 for 2 yards (H.Thomas, S.Fujita).
3-7-CIN25 (12:16) (Shotgun) C.Palmer pass short left to T.Houshmandzadeh to CIN 32 for 7 yards (J.Craft, O.Stoutmire).
1-10-CIN32 (11:50) C.Palmer pass short right to R.Johnson to CIN 39 for 7 yards (S.Shanle, S.Fujita) [A.Lake].
2-3-CIN39 (11:15) R.Johnson right guard to CIN 40 for 1 yard (W.Smith, C.Grant).
3-2-CIN40 (10:34) (Shotgun) C.Palmer pass deep left to C.Johnson for 60 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
S.Graham extra point is GOOD, Center-B.St. Louis, Holder-K.Larson.
CIN 17 NO 10, Plays: 6 Yards: 78 Possession: 3:16.

Cincinnati Bengals at 10:23
S.Graham kicks 69 yards from CIN 30 to NO 1. M.Lewis to NO 28 for 27 yards (A.Frazier).
New Orleans Saints at 10:16
1-10-NO28 (10:16) D.Brees pass incomplete short left to D.McAllister.
2-10-NO28 (10:11) R.Bush right tackle to NO 29 for 1 yard (L.Johnson).
3-9-NO29 (9:28) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short right to R.Bush to NO 35 for 6 yards (L.Johnson).
4-3-NO35 (8:58) S.Weatherford punts 45 yards to CIN 20, Center-K.Houser. K.Ratliff to CIN 26 for 6 yards (K.Houser).
Cincinnati Bengals at 08:45
1-10-CIN26 (8:45) R.Johnson left end to CIN 48 for 22 yards (F.Thomas). FUMBLES (F.Thomas), ball out of bounds at CIN 48.
1-10-CIN48 (8:25) C.Palmer pass deep left to C.Johnson to NO 4 for 48 yards (F.Thomas).
1-4-NO4 (7:41) C.Palmer pass short left to C.Johnson for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
S.Graham extra point is GOOD, Center-B.St. Louis, Holder-K.Larson.
CIN 24 NO 10, Plays: 3 Yards: 74 Possession: 1:08.

 

[amadeov]

Five-star city! Mayor: LSSpam.

Tremendous, well thought out post. Thank you. =)

 

[RebSaint]

I agree, here Spam.

Especially about the overcomplicating things point.

I'll be even simpler: eliminate at least 3 turnovers, especially those in the red zone and the Saints have a good chance to win this game.

 

[sandiegosaint]

Since we're reposting things from other threads, I'll suggest again that the absence of the big receiver Marques Colston was felt at the goal line. The guy has all those touchdowns for a reason.

I agree with your post, too. 510 yards passing. That's fantastic. It's also 170 more than the next highest total for the day. Wow.

 

[peytonknows]

I agree with you lss.

 

[Torgo]

The Saints produced 600 yards of offense, 300 of it in the first half. They held onto the ball for 33:33. We produced 29 first downs, were 50% on 3rd down conversions (league average is below 40%). We had only 4 penalties, only one of which was arguably critical (the Jahri Evans hold).

Defensively, prior to the 4th quarter the Saints, through aggressive defensive play-calling, had stuffed the run and held the Bengals to 10 points, 7 of it coming on one busted coverage play. This despite numerous turnovers.

Prior to the 4th quarter the Bengals had only produced 220 total yards. 112 of Chad Johnson's yards came in the 4th quarter as well as 44 of Rudi Johnson's yards. Put differently, going into the 4th, Rudi Johnson had 67 yards rushing, Chad Johnson 68 yards recieving.



No, let me make this real simple.

If we do not throw interceptions in the end zone. If we are leading 24-10 going into the 4th. The defense plays softer because it can ignore the run. Chad Johnson does not just destroy us for 112 yards on 2 deep passes because we have deep safety help. This is a different game.

That's it. That's all there is to it. It's fine to discuss individual performances, I enjoy it. Dissecting what happened to Fred Thomas/Josh Bullocks is fine. I agree with that.

But the secret to the game is very clear.

1) We did not have poor play-calling. We had good Time of Possession. We kept the Bengals off the field. We moved the ball extremely well. Payton did not call "Interception in the End Zone". Those were bad decisions. They occur.

2) The defense wasn't as awful as it's being made out to be. The defense is not particularly good. But they are plenty good enough. They held a Cinncinati offense that doused a very good San Diego defense to 10 points and not many yards for 3 quarters. Things were bound to break down eventually. The offense had to help the defense out by getting a lead. It's a lot easier to play defense with a lead. We play softer, put safeties over the top, largely ignore the run, Chad Johnson doesn't go crazy, we get a better pass rush. Things are different.

3) Same with Freddie T. Expecting Freddie T to man up on Chad Johnson for 4 quarters is ridiculous. Better CBs then him have been victimized by Chad Johnson. He needed safety help, but the defense was rarely in a position to consistently give it to him (and Bullocks blew the help anyways when it was supposed to be there). Freddie T did get burned. It's not that suprising though and he shouldn't be cut. Again, we play with a lead in the 4th and this probably isn't even discussed.

4) What does Simoneau have to do with Chad Johnson getting 112 yards and 2 TDs in the 4th quarter? How on earth does Danny Clark affect this?

So chill out folks. This is simple. Don't throw two picks in the end zone. Since Drew Brees rarely does this, I suspect the problem will be fixed.

It's ok folks. It's ok.

Great post. I've been pretty much fighting the same battles all day today. Turnovers is what killed us today. We'd have seen a completely different 4th quarter with a lead. This defense is good enough.

However, I will disagree about one thing, and that's the comment about the play-calling. While I wouldn't exactly say Payton called a poor game, he could have done a better job by calling more running plays. The turnovers in the Ravens game were understandable. We couldn't run for squat in that game and when we did pass, Brees was getting a lot of heat. Today, we were running the ball at 4 yards a pop. We just chose to abandon the running game. How many times did we ever call two or three running plays in row? I truly believe that had we run more, we would have limited our turnovers. Sure, it's easy to say that maybe if we ran, we still could have fumbled, but I don't buy that logic. Most of our turnovers this year have been during passing plays--either INTs or receivers fumbling after a catch. This team is passing way too much.

I'll even take it a step further.

We all recall the concern about Brees' shoulder going into the season. He was limited with his throws in mini-camp and training camp. It was something to keep an eye on. He seems to have made a full recovery, but isn't it a little reckless having him drop back and pass 40-50 times a game? Not only are we risking wearing out his newly-repaired shoulder, but he's also going to take more hits. Look, I love the creativity of Payton's offense, but I think, as of late, we've been unnecessarily pass-heavy. Brees has been great, but I think he's starting to press because he's carrying this offense. I believe it's time to start putting more weight on Deuce and Bush's running skills.

 

[DMaestro]

So chill out folks. This is simple. Don't throw two picks in the end zone. Since Drew Brees rarely does this, I suspect the problem will be fixed.

I'm gonna be a bit of a Chicken Little here. While I love what Brees is doing this year, it's not just his INTs this game that are scaring me. It's his "almost" INTs.

Case in point: he nearly threw two bad picks to Pittsburgh defenders last week. Balls that were in their hands; they just dropped them. Cincinatti dropped one easy INT today. Doing the math, that's six times defenders have gotten hands on poorly-conceived Brees passes in the span of two games. And that's not even mentioning the Ravens game (which consisted mostly of fluke picks).

This is why I'm not okay with Payton's recent run-pass ratio. Torgo may be right in that Brees is pressing too much. We've been seeing more and more mental mistakes from him, some of which have not shown up in the stat sheet.

Bottom line, we have enough talent on offense where Brees does not have to win games with his arm. Let's get back to the basics and reestablish the balance we had earlier in the season.

 

[GameBreaker]

Great Post Spam...I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Great Dane]

Good post. And please do not get me wrong, but such excuses is for losers. The big question you did not ask is: Why did we not use Deuce on 1st down in the red zone. Also: Why are we still "too cute" in the red zone. (bottom half in the NFL)

We have a physical team. Exploit it. Deuce does not have butterfingers and is extremely good in the red zone. But the HC has to call his name. He is not. Why?

 

[varanook]

We all recall the concern about Brees' shoulder going into the season. He was limited with his throws in mini-camp and training camp. It was something to keep an eye on. He seems to have made a full recovery, but isn't it a little reckless having him drop back and pass 40-50 times a game? Not only are we risking wearing out his newly-repaired shoulder, but he's also going to take more hits. Look, I love the creativity of Payton's offense, but I think, as of late, we've been unnecessarily pass-heavy. Brees has been great, but I think he's starting to press because he's carrying this offense. I believe it's time to start putting more weight on Deuce and Bush's running skills.

Good points, our coach tends to get somewhat pass happy at times. need to run the ball more, especially when you are running at 4 a pop. Ohh, and where is Deuce. Give him the friggin ball more.

Lastly, when we started the season we seemed to be using the running backs a lot more than over the last 3 or 4 games.. I think we need to get back to that.

 

[St. Geezy]

Great post Spam. You are right.

2 interceptions throw in the endzone + an interception returned for a TD usually equals doom....no matter who you are playing. That's potentially a 21-point swing right there alone.

 

[Forest]

I agree with everything you said, and yes it would have been a different defensive plan. However, no matter what the situation, if you have that much of the field to work with on offense, a safety needs to play the pass first. Bullocks reminded me of Madden 2007 so badly yesterday. If you don't pass commit, they BITE HARD. And Bullocks yesterday didn't commit to the pass first and got schooled. Defense on the whole wasn't awful, but Bullocks was, and at the wrong times.

Seriously, this is the same team that threw a 30 yard strike on 4th and inches...

 

[SaintJ]

Great post. I don't care how many times he posts it this week. Scorsese keeps making the same really good movie over and over, but nobody seems to complain.

I had a little quibble or two about the red-zone play calling, but I'll hold off on it in case I ever get an OC job myself, don't want to give away trade secrets.

 

[sterlr]

Playcalling cost us the turnovers

It (the game) was over from the start.
All in all Brees should have never been put in passing situations inside the 5 yard line. BAD!! playcalling, Payton is too pass happy, not enough variety in the Redzone. Again why isn't both Deuce and Reggie not in the game together in the RedZone ALL THE TIME? Also, I would like to see a change of pace in the offense when we're in a funk, such as a hurry up offense.

 

[blackngold4877]

Well done. It's very simple, and this is true in most games and all sports. Throughout the course of any game there are 2 or 3 critical plays, 2 or 3 critical pitches, 2 or 3 critical saves, that are the difference between a W or L. Brees simply made poor decisions at the worst possible times yesterday, and Coppers fumble didn't help matters either, but it's all on Brees. Throwing for 510 yards is fantastic but if he throws those 3 picks in those 3 spots we lose every time, I don't care if he throws for 700 yards.