A couple of surprises, and the positions on D that i believe need to be upgraded and ways to fix them (1 Viewer)

[blasian]

This is pointless.

 

[bobad]

I'm not saying sacks are worthless, but they don't define a pass rush.

Sacks and pressures are the same thing. Any sack leader is going to have pressures, fumbles, bad throws, holding penalties. Sacks are a very important. Period. The 7 sack leaders last year played on teams that averaged 11 wins. Doesn't that tell you anything?

 

[blasian]

Sacks and pressures are the same thing. Any sack leader is going to have pressures, fumbles, bad throws, holding penalties. Sacks are a very important. Period. The 7 sack leaders last year played on teams that averaged 11 wins. Doesn't that tell you anything?

Yes but you can pressure a QB without actually getting a sack.

 

[stevend]

Yes but you can pressure a QB without actually getting a sack.

Just ask Tom Brady who wasn't sacked once against the Jets.

 

[NPs6724]

Sacks and pressures are the same thing. Any sack leader is going to have pressures, fumbles, bad throws, holding penalties. Sacks are a very important. Period. The 7 sack leaders last year played on teams that averaged 11 wins. Doesn't that tell you anything?

Yes, it tells me what I already knew: sacks are good, but not the be-all, end-all. Pressures and sacks are not the same thing. You can get pressure without producing a sack. You can pressure the QB all day long and have 0 sacks.

Teams that win 11 games are more likely to be leading for a good portion of the game and more likely to have a double-digit lead, which leads to less running and more passing by the opposing team. The more opportunities you have to rush the QB, the more sacks you are likely to have. If Player A has 10 sacks and Player B has 8, it doesn't necessarily mean Player A is better. He could be on a team who holds big leads more often than Player B's team. Player A could be an all-or-nothing player who only has 1 move and if he doesn't sack the QB he does nothing but get pushed out of the play (Bobby McCray) while Player B can get pressure without producing a sack.

Again, no one said sacks are worthless. But they don't tell you everything.

 

[Loose Cannon]

Yes, it tells me what I already knew: sacks are good, but not the be-all, end-all. Pressures and sacks are not the same thing. You can get pressure without producing a sack. You can pressure the QB all day long and have 0 sacks.

Teams that win 11 games are more likely to be leading for a good portion of the game and more likely to have a double-digit lead, which leads to less running and more passing by the opposing team. The more opportunities you have to rush the QB, the more sacks you are likely to have. If Player A has 10 sacks and Player B has 8, it doesn't necessarily mean Player A is better. He could be on a team who holds big leads more often than Player B's team. Player A could be an all-or-nothing player who only has 1 move and if he doesn't sack the QB he does nothing but get pushed out of the play (Bobby McCray) while Player B can get pressure without producing a sack.

Again, no one said sacks are worthless. But they don't tell you everything.

If you get a ton of pressures, the sacks will come. Sacks are easily the best way to measure pass rush ability.

And if you have a guy that gets a lot of pressures and no sacks, it simply tells you that they are not good finishers. The elite pass rushers that teams covet finish plays and cause turnovers, they don't just "cause pressure".

 

[blasian]

just ask tom brady who wasn't sacked once against the jets.

thank you!

 

[NOFALCONS10]

corey wootton DE northwestern 6'7 270
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waZuFK_pxjA

great quickness and body control in pursuit.


george selvie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJZLb6jdnZ0

too quick. he's like a young simeon rice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qSULXDHZs





just to add to the argument here, grant nor smith have alot of pass rush move that can be considered successfull by any stretch of the imagination.

in order to be a successful pass rusher you must possess either great quickness, great power, or both. along with a variety of counter moves.

you have to be able to fake, swim, spin, rip, bull-rush, etc.

or at least have one good one like dwight freeney.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/indianapo...Colts-Defense-Highlight-WK-01-vs-Jaguars-2009

our starting ends dont really have one. the are built to stop the run. will smith was a pass rusher coming out of college but seems to have lost speed when he added more muscle.

 

[NPs6724]

If you get a ton of pressures, the sacks will come. Sacks are easily the best way to measure pass rush ability.

And if you have a guy that gets a lot of pressures and no sacks, it simply tells you that they are not good finishers. The elite pass rushers that teams covet finish plays and cause turnovers, they don't just "cause pressure".

Elite pass rushers can do that, but that's why they're elite. What about the rest? There are very few elite pass rushers. In a group of 10 good pass rushers, how do you rank them? Just by sacks?

If you have 2 elite pass rushers, 1 with more sacks but fewer forced fumbles and 1 with fewer sacks but more forced fumbles, which would you call the better pass rusher?

 

[Loose Cannon]

Elite pass rushers can do that, but that's why they're elite. What about the rest? There are very few elite pass rushers. In a group of 10 good pass rushers, how do you rank them? Just by sacks?

If you have 2 elite pass rushers, 1 with more sacks but fewer forced fumbles and 1 with fewer sacks but more forced fumbles, which would you call the better pass rusher?

I'd call the player with more sacks the better pass rusher, and the guy with more forced fumbles the better playmaker. As far as overall player, you'd have to look at their entire body of work.

If your argument was "you can't rate a DE strictly off of sacks", then I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. But the argument is that "sacks are not the best measurement of a _pass rusher_", which is unequivocally wrong.

 

[NOFALCONS10]

Elite pass rushers can do that, but that's why they're elite. What about the rest? There are very few elite pass rushers. In a group of 10 good pass rushers, how do you rank them? Just by sacks?

If you have 2 elite pass rushers, 1 with more sacks but fewer forced fumbles and 1 with fewer sacks but more forced fumbles, which would you call the better pass rusher?

i agree that sacks arent the be-all and end all of gauging talent of pass rushers.

with elite pass rushers (much the same in the case of a player like reggie bush) the true measuring stick never shows up in a stat column. Dwight freeney finishes many games with zero sacks but the emphasis offenses put into neutralizing him with double-teams and chips far out weigh the emphasis teams put on average pass rushers like smith and grant who can be handled fairly easily with one man. no knock on our starters, they are great ends but dreadfully average pass-rushers.

 

[NPs6724]

If your argument was "you can't rate a DE strictly off of sacks", then I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. But the argument is that "sacks are not the best measurement of a _pass rusher_", which is unequivocally wrong.

It's not wrong. There's no right or wrong answer. It's based solely on opinion.

And there is no "best" measurement of a pass rusher because no one number is significant enough. Is the best QB the one with the most TDs? Not necessarily. I'd rather have a guy with 10 more pressures and 1 fewer sack than a guy with 1 more sack and 10 fewer pressures.

 

[birdog]

2) the pass rush from the de position. Grant and Smith are pretty much waisting spots. Both need to be upgraded as it appears star caps was the only thing keeping them in shape. They provide 0 push. Look at New York's DE's Tuck and Osi. They collapse the pocket and make plays. Same for Jarred Allen, etc. Our DE's are making HUGE amounts of money for LITTLE production.

I've seen an interesting thing regarding Will Smith. In the game against the Eagles, Bobby McCray lined up in his spot....and had a sack.

I was watching W Smith to see how he responds.....to his credit, he tried to imitate McCray, but he just can't cut as sharply as McCray.....but he is trying.

Now learning how to cut back towards the middle of the field does not take much talent.....only lots of practice to hone in the speed and the cutback ability.And let me ask....when did we see WS cut back sharply toward the QB??.....not in the last 3-4 years for sure!

What I think is WS has plenty of rust to get rid off, before he can be NFL ready....and I mean refining his cut-back ability.....but if he is serious about his career, then he will practice this every day.....as I said, for the past 3-4 years no one demanded from him to be more productive.....not untill now! GW will demand productivity from him, and I have a hunch....by December, we might be able to see a different Will Smith....he is powerful enough, and knows the game.....all he has to do is getting to the QB faster.....which means cutting back sharply so the OT can't develop leverage against his rush.....the best way for him is to cut back as sharply as he can......maybe not right now, but by December he could be back to his rookie season form!

As I said....he is trying, but this thing needs lots of practice...today he looks a bit slow, but he could get better,.... a lot better in a few months...and that's the time when games count the most!!

 

[mikaloyd]

Go to the NFL stats and find a few sack leading DE's or OLB's, and you will usually find winning teams.

The linebacker De Marcus Ware of the Cowboys led all NFL players in sacks last year with 20. They didnt make the playoffs. Again.

The leading defensive lineman was John Abraham of the Falcons with 14 sacks. They did make the playoffs but lets look deeper.

James Harrison the linebacker for the Super Bowl champion Steelers was third in sacks at 15. But no Steeler lineman cracked the top 30 in sacks.

No Ravens player was in the top 30 in sacks, and they play the Steelers twice a year and Roethlisberger hands out sacks like candy.

No Cardinals player was in the top 30. They did pretty good last year

2 Raiders, 2 Lions, 2 Rams and 2 49er players players were top 30 in sacks.
And they all got really good draft picks this year

Also one 2008 Saints player, Mc Cray was in 26th place with 6 sacks. As I remember it our pass defense was not exactly stellar last year.

Sacks are good to have of course but some pretty good defenses manage to be pretty good with players who do not get lots of sacks. And some grandma kickin ugly defenses manage to be turrible despite having some linemen and linebackers with large numbers of sacks. So maybe huge numbers of sacks might not be the best indicator a winning team or the best measure of a defensive lineman.

Sacks are just tackles for losses, same as what happens to running backs all the time anyway. Nothing especially magical about a sack except the cool factor of seeing a QB laid out flat on his back and wriggling his arms and legs like a flipped over turtle.

 

[NOFALCONS10]

The linebacker De Marcus Ware of the Cowboys led all NFL players in sacks last year with 20. They didnt make the playoffs. Again.

The leading defensive lineman was John Abraham of the Falcons with 14 sacks. They did make the playoffs but lets look deeper.

James Harrison the linebacker for the Super Bowl champion Steelers was third in sacks at 15. But no Steeler lineman cracked the top 30 in sacks.

No Ravens player was in the top 30 in sacks, and they play the Steelers twice a year and Roethlisberger hands out sacks like candy.

No Cardinals player was in the top 30. They did pretty good last year

2 Raiders, 2 Lions, 2 Rams and 2 49er players players were top 30 in sacks.
And they all got really good draft picks this year

Also one 2008 Saints player, Mc Cray was in 26th place with 6 sacks. As I remember it our pass defense was not exactly stellar last year.

Sacks are good to have of course but some pretty good defenses manage to be pretty good with players who do not get lots of sacks. And some grandma kickin ugly defenses manage to be turrible despite having some linemen and linebackers with large numbers of sacks. So maybe huge numbers of sacks might not be the best indicator a winning team or the best measure of a defensive lineman.

Sacks are just tackles for losses, same as what happens to running backs all the time anyway. Nothing especially magical about a sack except the cool factor of seeing a QB laid out flat on his back and wriggling his arms and legs like a flipped over turtle.

didnt the cardinals have like the 31st pass defense in the NFL last year and the steelers #1?

weren't the falcons ranked number 24?