A Look Back at, and a Somewhat Critical View of, Our Contrarian Approach to the Draft (Long) (1 Viewer)

RJ in Lafayette

Super Forum Fanatic
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 1999
Messages
11,819
Reaction score
12,277
Offline
My longtime friends on this forum know that I occasionally cringe at our propensity to move up in the draft by trading away picks and our refusal to never trade down. Regarding this year's draft, I have no criticism of whom we selected--all three players satisfy needs and seemingly fit our team's culture, and Baun and Trautman arguably went a round later than they should have been picked. But I am critical of how frequently we trade away future picks and of the surrender of four picks to move up from 130 to 105 (traditionally, the middle of the fourth round) to select Trautman.

Prefatorily (and I have statistical data at home that I need to find), every team knows the probability of making a good pick for every position by number in the draft--that is, the probability at, say, pick 68 that the player selected will be an All-Conference player, a Pro Bowl player, a starter for at least two seasons, or a contributor for at least three seasons.

I have looked at how the Saints have drafted since 2006, Payton's first year. I have obviously have had to make some subjective determinations as to whether a player was a good selection. My observations:

--In round 1, our drafting has been extraordinary. We have hit on 14 out of 15 players picked. (I remain critical of the Davenport trade because of the value given up to move up, but I would say that Davenport has been a solid player when he has played and thus is a hit for purposes of this analysis. The only bad pick was Anthony in 2015. Note if a player has been fairly productive, I count that selection as a hit.)

--In round 2, we have hit on 6 of the 9 players picked.

--In round 3, we have hit on 5, and arguably 6, of the 13 players hit. (I am counting Hendrickson as a hit; the number is 6 if you include Tre'Quan Smith.)

--In round 4, we have hit on 4 of the 12 players picked. (I did not count Al Woods as a hit.)

--In round 5, we have hit on 5 of the 14 players picked. (I included Rob Ninkovich as a hit because of his later success.)

--In round 6, we have hit on 0 of the 8 players picked.

--In round 7, we have hit on at least 2 of the 12 players picked (Strief and Colston. I did not include Marcus Murphy, Will Clapp or Kaden Ellis.)

--Regarding the number of hits and draft picks each year, 2006--6 out of 8; 2007--2 out of 7; 2008--3 out of 6; 2009--2 out of 4; 2010--2 out of 6; 2011--2 out of 6; 2012--1 out of 5; 2013--3 out of 5; 2014--1 out of 6; 2015--2 out of 9; 2016--4 out of 5; 2017--6 out of 7; 2018--2 out of 7 (I will include as a hit Smith, but not yet Clapp); and 2019--2 out of 5 (I am not including Ellis).

--Over the last 10 years, our drafting in the middle rounds has not been good.

Based on studies I have seen and decades of watching successful NFL organization build teams, these are my general views on drafting:

1. If a draft produces three really good players--players who are at least consistent starters--the draft has been successful.

2. Teams better hit in the first two rounds and should do well in the third round, especially in the first half of that round. Teams with superior scouting departments can find good players from the late third round through round 5. The odds of finding good players significantly decrease after round 5. (And the statistical studies do not group players by rounds, but by blocks or tiers based on the number of the selection, such as 1-14, 15-22, 23-45, 46-66, and so forth.)

3. Drafting is hard, in part because there is a statistical possibility of failure for every player picked in the draft. There is injury, poor work ethic after a big contract, poor evaluation of a player's physical ability. Most teams try to accumulate draft picks not necessarily to ensure that a large number of players make its roster, but to maximize the chances of a certain number of players making its roster. It is better to draft three players with a 55 percent chance of being a hit rather than 1 player with a 65 percent chance of being a hit. However, a caveat is that special players, especially franchise quarterbacks, are rare. With special players, the trade charts, which are just a general guide, may not apply.

4. No team can claim that it is so talented that only 3 or 4 draft picks can make the roster. Injuries occur. Quality depth is always needed.

My contrary views on how the contrarian Saints operate:

1. Given the talent on our roster and our success over the last three years, if not overall success since 2006, the Saints are doing overall something right, though I am convinced that Payton's favorite song is the Sinatra classic "My Way." The Saints' approach to the draft is a contrarian one, targeting specific players and trading away multiple picks, especially future picks, to trade up. But it is contrary to the statistical studies on how to draft, which is the reason each year you see some teams trying to make as many draft picks as possible. I have no disagreement with occasionally moving up to get a targeted player. But there are times when we need to move down to get more picks, or just to sit where we are and let the draft come to us, which is what we did this year at 24.

2. The Saints are a talented team, but I disagree with the notion that our team is so talented that only a small number of draft picks should be able to make our roster. Every year people say that, and often the Saints have multiple undrafted free agents making the roster. With our three draft selections, we are solid in the lines. But we still need help at wide receiver, and could use quality depth at any number of positions, especially at defensive back, linebacker, and running back. A team can never--never--have too many good players.

3. I have no problem with the three players we picked. I like Ruiz, who I think was a late first-round to early second-round player. There often is not much of a difference in grade between the 24th player and the 40th player. Baun and Trautman could have gone 20 to 30 picks earlier than where they were picked. But we paid the price of 7 draft picks to pick Baun and Trautman--picks 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 in this year's draft and a 3 in 2021. And there are reasons that Baun and Trautman, who at 105 was in effect a fourth-round pick, did not go higher. Again, given where they were drafted, there is a substantial statistical possibility that they will not be quality starters in the future. And each time we trade away future picks, we adversely affect our ability to maneuver in future drafts. Because of the Davenport trade in 2018, we did not have a first-round pick and had to give up our 2019 second-round pick to move up to pick McCoy. Because we did not have our second-round pick this year, we were challenged in this draft.
 
Last edited:
Is it ironic that one of the most contrarian posters on this board is taking the contrarian view on the Saints' contrarian approach to the draft?

By the way, I don't disagree that the Saints don't particularly manage draft assets well and that I would prefer more of a New England or Baltimore approach to the draft, but what they do certainly works for them. It's really hard to argue with the success this team has had.
 
Considering we'll have an abbreviated offseason at best and possibly no preseason at all.....tell me how players drafted in rounds 4-7 would have a chance to impress the coaches and earn a roster spot this offseason?
Very good point. Never considered that late rounders really would basically have a 0% chance of making an impact being that they would not have any time to impress.
 
Wow. After the success of Ireland since he’s been here, I just don’t get the complaining. The Saints have added a ton of talent and starters including OROY and DROY from the SAME DRAFT. Add in drafting the NFL’s top WR, and you have the Saints with elite players at multiple positions through these recent drafts.

I think there is still a need at WR, but that’s about it. We will sign a vet backup QB, and maybe a boundary corner. But we are a talented team with good depth, and that is because of successful drafting.
 
Ultimately, I can't say I disagree with St. Widge's assessment.

The numbers I am about to offer may be dated. They come from a study covering much of the 1970s and 1980s. There are surely much recent statistical studies, and every NFL team has the statistical data, However, the historical draft data I have show these probabilities:

--Picks 1-13--An 84 percent chance of being a starter for at least 3 years, a 75 percent chance of being a starter for least 5 years, a 49 percent chance of going to at least 1 Pro Bowl, a 26 percent chance of going to at least 3 Pro Bowls, a 26 percent chance of being named to All-Pro at least once, and an 11 percent chance of being named All-pro at least 3 times.

--Picks 14-40--The chances are for the categories listed above, 70 percent, 55 percent, 22 percent, 10 percent, 13 percent and 3 percent.

--Picks 41-66--The chances respectively are 52 percent, 40 percent, 15 percent, 4 percent, 7 percent and 1 percent.

--Picks 67-86--The chances respectively are 35 percent, 23 percent, 7 percent, 3 percent, 4 percent and 0.6 percent.

--Picks 87-149--The chances respectively are 23 percent, 16 percent, 5 percent, 1 percent, 2 percent and 0.2 percent.

--Picks 150-189--The chances respectively are 14 percent, 9 percent, 4 percent, 1 percent, 2 percent and 0.3 percent.

To put things in perspective, based on these numbers, there is a 70 percent chance of Ruiz (picked at 24) starting for at least 3 years and 22 percent chance of his going to at least 1 Pro Bowl. There is a 35 percent chance of Baun (picked at 74) starting for at least 3 years and 7 percent chance of his going to at least 1 Pro Bowl. And there is a 23 percent chance of Trautman (picked at 105) starting for 3 years and 5 percent chance of his going to at least 1 Pro Bowl.

If the goal is at least 3 quality starters each draft, did we get a hit all three times we went to the plate? And the best analogy is getting a hit in baseball. Would you want, say, 3 at-bats or 6 at-bats?
 
Louder, I am trying to offer a critique. I hope I am not coming across as whining or complaining. I think Ireland has done an excellent job. My lament is that I think Payton is so aggressive that he is not letting Ireland do as good of a job as he can. 2017 was a remarkable draft. But for the most part (we traded up for Kamara), we let the draft come to us. I like the Ruiz pick in the first pick. To me, he is a safer pick than Queen. We stayed at 24 and picked a good player.
 
You have offered an excellent critique here, even if I disagree with your conclusions for this draft. I think the unusual circumstances regarding offseason workouts mitigate the extra picks we would have had in rounds 4-7. That said, this was a great read and I am genuinely grateful to you for providing it.
 
Louder, I am trying to offer a critique. I hope I am not coming across as whining or complaining. I think Ireland has done an excellent job. My lament is that I think Payton is so aggressive that he is not letting Ireland do as good of a job as he can. 2017 was a remarkable draft. But for the most part (we traded up for Kamara), we let the draft come to us. I like the Ruiz pick in the first pick. To me, he is a safer pick than Queen. We stayed at 24 and picked a good player.

Don't get me wrong R.J., I'm probably among the more contrarian posters on this board, just not so much in regard to football. :)

Anyway, I agree that Payton is too aggressive in the draft and Ireland could probably really do an even better job if we didn't constantly trade picks. But that's Payton. It's the same with the way he manages games. He's too aggressive at times like double reverses near the endzone or going for the heart with a dagger with the passing game instead of pounding a team into submission with the running game when you have the lead. But, it can be spectacular at times like Ambush and, in the draft, trading up to round 3 to take Kamara.

And on balance, I'll take Payton any day. I don't think there is another head coach in the NFL that I would rather have. I mean, honestly, Belichick may be better, but he would bring zero fun to my life.
 
Last edited:
Louder, I am trying to offer a critique. I hope I am not coming across as whining or complaining. I think Ireland has done an excellent job. My lament is that I think Payton is so aggressive that he is not letting Ireland do as good of a job as he can. 2017 was a remarkable draft. But for the most part (we traded up for Kamara), we let the draft come to us. I like the Ruiz pick in the first pick. To me, he is a safer pick than Queen. We stayed at 24 and picked a good player.
I hear you. But maybe the draft strategy has overall success because of Payton’s aggressiveness coupled with Ireland’s assessments of the individual players.

Whatever the Saints are doing is highly successful. Is it the traditional or conservative approach? No. But we have a team that is consistently in the playoffs and has the most wins in the NFL in the last 3 seasons.
 
Everyone talks about how good we are with UDFA, Imagine actually selecting players you want 70-80 spots ahead of UDFA. If you can do well in undrafted you should be able to make hay on day three.
 
Those trades get approved by the scouting department and Ireland. So, quit trying to separate the two and try to put blame on Payton. They collectively seeked to trade for specific players.

You put too much value into theoretical picks that are a worthless without talent.

You don't view the draft as a lottery and just acquire the most picks. You simply don't get better odds of talent hitting. That doesn't work. It's marginally the same or worse depending on the quality of the draft class. No draft is the same and no draft has same depth of talent. This was a good, but top heavy draft.

At the end of the day, the only value we lost was a 2021 3rd round pick. Which we will get back through Teddy's comp pick. A 4,5,6,7 are pretty worthless in this draft on a team like ours.

So, your argument just seems incredibly flawed and close minded to how a 32 Team NFL draft actually operates. Especially, in a draft with a limited scouting opportunity due to covid-19. It compounds the issues with no OTA, meetings, MiniCamp, or Rookie camp.

I rather to team scout for sure things in a time like this..
 
Last edited:
Those trades get approved by the scouting department and Ireland. So, quit trying to separate the two and try to put blame on Payton. They collectively seeked to trade for specific players.

You put too much value into theoretical picks that are a worthless without talent.

You don't view the draft as a lottery and just acquire the most picks. You simply don't get better odds of talent hitting. That doesn't work. It's marginally the same or worse depending on the quality of the draft clasd. No draft is the same and no draft has same depth of talent. This was a good, but top heavy draft.

At the end of the day, the only value we lost was a 2021 3rd round pick. Which we will get back through Teddy's comp pick. A 4,5,6,7 are pretty worthless in this draft on a team like ours.

So, your argument just seems incredibly flawed and close minded to how a 32 Team NFL draft actually operates. Especially, in a draft with a limited scouting opportunity due to covid-19. It compunds the issues with no OTA, meetings, MiniCamp, or Rookie camp.

I rather to team scout for sure things in a time like this..

Irleand certainly has input on trades, but I doubt the scouts have any input. They are there to tell Payton and Loomis how good they think a player is, not evaluate trades. The draft day setup Payton has even has a separate video conference with the scouts along with a separate one with Loomis, Payton, and Ireland. And Payton said it's set up so that he can mute the scouts. At some point, it really comes down to Payton and Loomis to pull the trigger with input from Ireland.
 
All I'm going to say on this topic is that I think you will see the Saints Draft strategy change significantly Post-Drew Brees era.

- In that I believe they will be a lot more traditional with the value of their picks, will they still move up to get guys? Sure but I think after Drew Brees retires they won't be as aggressive in giving away future picks or bundling multiple picks to target a specific player.

This philosophy you are seeing is to maximize a Current window.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users who are viewing this thread

    Back
    Top Bottom