A recent news story got me thinking about abortion... (1 Viewer)

bop

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It was a story on one of the networks about a pregnant woman who was murdered and how her husband is a suspect. Before I go on I'll give my stance on abortion so people wont misunderstand where I'm coming from.

I'm not against abortion. I'm not for it either. I just don't care either way. (which some people would probably say makes me pro abortion) In fact my own girlfriend of 3+ years had an abortion, though it was before we met. I'm not religious, so I don't have those hang ups on the issue, nor do I feel its any of my business or concern what somebody does with their unborn fetus. On the other hand, do I think its a great thing or the best way to resolve things when you don't feel your ready to have a child? No. Thus my not really caring anyway. The only time I care enough to be pro abortion is when far right religious nut jobs claim a woman shouldn't be able to have an abortion even in the case of rape or incest. The only time I care enough to be against abortion is when far left liberal wacko's claim its ok to perform abortions all the way into the 8th month. (To me, when it reaches the point where it can be born prematurely and still have a very good chance of living, then its a baby and to kill it is murder.)

Now back to the point. It seems to me that most members of the mainstream media lean left and probably support abortion, which is fine. But why, of all the murders across the country everyday, do they always pick up on these pregnant women murders (see Laci Peterson) and run with them. Why does the public, even the ones who support abortion, bite on this? Why do they make these big, sad stories over these unborn children as opposed to a non pregnant woman being murdered when normally they would think an unborn child is nothing more than a fetus, no different than a growing toenail to be clipped and disposed of at your will?

And why, when a suspect is put on trial in one of these cases, is he charged with two murders? Or say a drunk driver hits a car driven by a pregnant woman and she miscarries. Well that's vehicular homicide. Why then isn't an abortion doctor seen as a murderer, or an aborted fetus seen as a living thing capable of being killed? I know some people will say "Well in one case the mother wants to have the baby and its killed, but in the other she wants the baby aborted." So what does that mean? A wanted fetus is a living fetus and an unwanted one is not? I don't think want, or lack there of, makes one any more or less alive than the other.

Like I said, I'm not against abortion and I don't want anybody to see this as a pro life rant. I just don't understand what ground this double standard has to stand on. I guess I would just like to see some consistency, no matter which side it falls on. Don't call it a fetus when you want to justify abortion and an unborn child when you want to make a sweeps week headline grabber or when you want to nail somebody with double murder charges.
 
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Saint by the Bay

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What you point out is exactly why the pro choice folks fight against those types of laws protecting unborn life. It sets the stage for a challenge to abortion.
 

Taceo

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I would assume it has something to do with what trimester the fetus was in. Since abortion can only occur in the first trimester, maybe you can only have the charges upped if its past the abortion date? I don't know though.
 

Taurus

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Consent.

If I give my car to you, that's fine. Steal it and now we have a crime.

Since the deceased didn't die during a D&C, it is assumed she didn't give consent on behalf of the fetus.
 

DCSaints_Fan

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People on the extreme want to make it a black and white issue, but its not.

Most people support some type of restrictions, especially when the fetus becomes viable and can be delivered. The only argument for late term is that it is slightly less dangerous for the mother to kill the unborn by crushing its skull and they deliver it (what a PBA essentially does), then to deiver a live infant.

On the other hand, most people support abortion in the early stages, especially in cases of rape. Forcing a woman to bear a child in those circumstances would be extraordinarly harsh. And you can make the argument that a developing embryo is no more alive than unfertilized egg or sperm.

Pesonally, I draw the line at brain activity, which occurs a couple weeks in( I think its about 6-8). Thats more than enough time for a woman to discover she's pregnant and make a choice to terminate the pregnancy if she wants.
 

JimEverett

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Consent.

If I give my car to you, that's fine. Steal it and now we have a crime.

Since the deceased didn't die during a D&C, it is assumed she didn't give consent on behalf of the fetus.
Consent does seem to be the difference, although the property analogy might beg the question.
There are situations where I can consent to a surgeon, den****t, or someone else, removing something from body, whereas without that consent a person who attempted or did do the exact same thing could be charged with a crime - assault or attmepted murder or something.
Also, some states allow euthanasia - where a person can consent to being killed and it is legal for someone to kill them. Whereas without that consent it would be a murder.
I think that is the legal difference - obviously it is not going to do much to advance the abortion debate on way or another.
 

Taurus

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Consent does seem to be the difference, although the property analogy might beg the question.
There are situations where I can consent to a surgeon, den****t, or someone else, removing something from body, whereas without that consent a person who attempted or did do the exact same thing could be charged with a crime - assault or attmepted murder or something.
Also, some states allow euthanasia - where a person can consent to being killed and it is legal for someone to kill them. Whereas without that consent it would be a murder.
I think that is the legal difference - obviously it is not going to do much to advance the abortion debate on way or another.
Agreed, though mainly I'm replying to ask what it was you typed that the cuss-filter didn't like. ;)
 

tak

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Abortion... A right to kill an innocent person? Who would've thought?
 

Random Fan

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The short answer is that criminal law/statutes don't define the 14th Amendment's Substantive Due Process clause. Certain abortions have been sanctioned by Supreme Court rulings thus a state can't make it a crime to perform an abortion whereas they can count the death of a pregnant woman to be a double homicide.
 

gumbeau

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So if a pregnant woman is murdered on the way to the abortion clinic it is only one murder?
 

Taurus

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Nope. If she dies from complications during a D&C though, it's only one count of manslaughter. (Or would be, if simple malpractice didn't cover it for some reason.)
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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I really don't understand the way the law works either. At most, it seems to me the charge should be one murder and one destruction of personal property, since the way the state does not define a fetus as a person or a citizen.
 

Pure Energy

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It's all about consistency and most of us don't have it. It's about alinging values with morals and most of us don't do it. I endeavour to align my values with my politics and it's challenging. Doint so makes me unpopular with many (both on this board and in real life). Doesn't matter to me...being true to oneself and maintaing constancy of purpose is more important.

What you're witnessing bop is lack of consistency because most people want to take the easy way out and not wrestle with the difficult decisons. The Atheists on the board, i.e. Taurus and Widge don't place the same value on human life in the womb that most Christians do (only when the baby is born or what the Supreme Court rules) so therefore they are much more consistent in their interpretations of their personal moral law. My finding is the lack of consistency is most pronounced in the Christian community both in real life and on this board who don't seem to value human life in accordance with the views of their Church. Many Christians are secular in their politics and interpretation of the law and that's why you see the dichotomy you presented in your original post.
 

saintlywife

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What a BS post, totally meant to drum up support for your anti-abortion sentiment. First of all, no one is "pro-abortion", and to label yourself as such is to give away the fact that you are against a woman's right to choose. "My girlfriend had an abortion" is akin to "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black." The rest of your post merely backs up this observation. Are you looking to controversy to make people on the board side with you? All you have to do is state your real opinion if you want allies. There are plenty here.


The "liberal media" (as you label it) doesn't latch on to "pregnant woman murders"...there's not some rash of them. The media does, however, spend too much time covering the "Missing White Women of the Week" stories. A few years back, there was endless coverage of the disappearance of Chandra Levy and the murder of Jon-Benet Ramsey, while a 4-year-old black girl in Lake Charles was abducted from her home. It only warranted a small blurb in our local newspaper, and no follow-up until she was found raped and murdered a week later....and that warranted an even smaller blurb in the paper.

Charging a person who causes a woman to miscarry, be it through a car accident or pushing her down a flight of stairs, with "infanticide" is hardly a universal. It's a state charge. And just a woman who miscarries for no reason than "God's will" can't be charged with murder, a doctor who performs an abortion also cannot be charged. It's not murder if there is no ill-will. And I'm so sick of this bull: "The only time I care enough to be against abortion is when far left liberal wacko's claim its ok to perform abortions all the way into the 8th month. (To me, when it reaches the point where it can be born prematurely and still have a very good chance of living, then its a baby and to kill it is murder.)" Does anyone really think that a woman, 7+ months into her pregnancy, suddenly decides she doesn't want to have a baby? Late-term abortions happen for two reasons: A)her life is at risk if she carries to term, and B)she was put off for so long by the government that she couldn't have one before. "B" is extremely rare....for now. But its a real example of how people who have nothing to do with a single case insert themselves into other's rights. Some of us (Brennan in particular) have been round and round this debate. I can't get any of you to change your religious beliefs on this issue. But the point remains: IT'S NOT UP TO YOU! You start getting pregnant, and then we'll talk. But until then a fetus is only a "life" when the woman carrying it conveys that status upon it. Sorry if this offends your sensibilities, but that's the way it is. And no amount of machismo or religious rhetoric will change that fact.

This issue usually devolves into "men's rights." But the coda is almost always: but if *I* don't want the baby, I still have to pay child support! Those people can't get it through their skulls that "child support" is not alimony...its for the
Support. Of. The. Child. The child they helped create. And if you don't like that option, keep it zipped up. I'm not saying it never happened, but I've never heard of (except in television) a man who wants to force a woman to have his baby, a baby that he would be solely responsible for (and I hardly think any such case would keep him from suing her for child support....not that non-custodial women shouldn't pay...they should. It is, after all, for the support of the child they both brought into this world.)

But the forced-carrying of a child, combined with the less and less available birth control choices for women, merely serves to impose male ownership upon women. Sorry, but it's true. I love my husband deeply, but he doesn't dictate what I do, nor does he tell me what I should think or feel. Frankly, I don't think he could live with me if I were even willing to do so. Not saying any of your wives would, or that any of you would think of doing such a thing, I'm merely speaking in generalities here....generalities brought on by many of those I've known who have these extremist views.

In conclusion bop, if you want to start some kind of anti-abortion thread (which is hardly a new topic here), just do so. Don't bring out strawman arguments looking for people to support you. Just speak your mind. You'll be respected a lot more for doing so.


(BTW PureEnergy, I am a Catholic...and, yes, therefore a Christian. And having a Pro-Choice stand is hardly taking "the easy way out." But it's the sound decision, not clouded by religious superiority, but hardly easy... and certainly not popular around here. And while I may not place the same *absolute* value on "life in the womb" as many other so-called "Christians", I DO place a very high value on the lives of the "post-born." Pardon me for thinking it's more important to value those who actually exist over those who are but a cluster of cells. I am anti-poverty, anti-racism, anti-murder, and anti-death penalty (it always makes me ill to hear fellow Catholics denounce abortion because it's "against Church teachings", yet still cheer for the death-penalty, which is equally against Church teachings.) Give me a world where everyone is treated equally, minorities, the poor, and women included, and I'll show you a world that Christ invisioned.
 
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Pure Energy

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(BTW PureEnergy, I am a Catholic...and, yes, therefore a Christian. And having a Pro-Choice stand is hardly taking "the easy way out." But it's the sound decision, not clouded by religious superiority, but hardly easy... and certainly not popular around here.
Anyone can believe whatever they wish to believe. I was reared in the Catholic faith...became an Easter/Christmas Catholic in high school and college and returned to the Church over the past few years. I know many, many Catholics who are pro artificial birth control and some who are pro abortion. I'm not sure what you mean by religious superiority, but as a Catholic, I believe the teachings of the Catholic Church. If I didn't believe in the teachings of the Church, I wouldn't be Catholic. The Catholic Church teaches us that abortion is wrong, as a Catholic I believe this. I don't believe I am Superior to the Church; I'm just a follower who strives to do my best.
 

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