Active shooting Philadelphia (1 Viewer)

[StudioSaint]

I think you are associating mass shooters, that have the primary purpose of bringing attention to a perceived, just cause, with criminals such as these, that apparently are selling and pushing their drugs, for profit and corrupting others and affecting so many others indirectly, with their criminal activity. And they apparently, are willing to take out police and authorities, intent on bringing them to justice. Apples and oranges, when it comes to what you have stated. Sorry.

Don't be sorry, just read more carefully.

I was responding to the comment that mass shooters are categorically mentally ill. That person lumped them all together. Everything I said is true for the vast majority of mass shooters.

Is it your contention that all mass shooters suffer from a severe mental illness? Is it your contention that most mass shooters are criminal drug runners?

And for the sake of clarity, a mass shooter is someone that shoots and kills as many people as they can in a public space without any preceding criminal and law enforcement activity.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

lol what can you do to a group a people of people what just want to get high and are content to pander for money and live in a tent in filth?

Give them a theatre and pay $25 either for their awesome play or $8 cover for their experimental jazz set

 

[Jeff Miller]

I'm not a professional and can't provide the kind of help they need. You're so certain they're all on the streets by choice, are you?
I mean, if so, if they're not human beings to you, why aren't you out there plinking 'em with a .22 like vermin?

Weather or not they are human or not is beside the point, you can't save people who choose to accept their ruined lives. And your plinking them with a 22 comment is rediculous.

 

[Jeff Miller]

And you know because you are familiar with everyone of those thousands of folks situations? Really?

Comes off as unbelievably arrogant, myopic and a host of other adjectives....

You have no idea how many of those folks would be able to turn their lives around given treatment and proper rehab, resources to help them....nor do I...and sadly we probably never will....

the current information published by The Oregonian based on the city of Portland's efforts is that only about 15% of the drug addicted squatting population see housing and drug abuse assistance. out of those 59% quit and go back to the streets withing the first 30 days.

Yes we do have an idea of the problem out here, as its very well documented all the money (hundreds of millions) spent by Portland, Seattle, SF and LA and the problem is getting worse, mainly because the unenforced camping and drug use laws have enabled this sub class of people to live they way want.

You can't seem to accept the fact that this lifestyle has become a choice, and not the result of them not getting that one helping hand that your misplaced compassion things they deserve.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Most are not any more mentally ill than the average American. We all have some degree of mental illness, just like we all have some degree of physical illness. None of us are perfectly fit physically or mentally.

What most people mean when they say they are mentally ill, is that they have a diagnosable and severe disorder. Most of the shooters have not had diagnosable nor severe disorders.

I mean, the fact that someone seriously considers a mass shooting should make them mentally ill pretty much by definition, right?

And how do we know them don't/didn't have mental disorders that were undaignosed? There is a huge stigma around mental health in this country. I'm not sure how many of these shooters were properly evaluated. I know at least some were, such as the Sandy Hook shooter and I think the Parkland shooter.

 

[sfidc3]

the current information published by The Oregonian based on the city of Portland's efforts is that only about 15% of the drug addicted squatting population see housing and drug abuse assistance. out of those 59% quit and go back to the streets withing the first 30 days.

Yes we do have an idea of the problem out here, as its very well documented all the money (hundreds of millions) spent by Portland, Seattle, SF and LA and the problem is getting worse, mainly because the unenforced camping and drug use laws have enabled this sub class of people to live they way want.

You can't seem to accept the fact that this lifestyle has become a choice, and not the result of them not getting that one helping hand that your misplaced compassion things they deserve.

That data, like all data, has a margin of error...Even if it is accurate, and it very well may be, if you can help some of them then its worth the effort, no? Oh wait, you know for a fact that every single one of them is beyond help....

Addiction is an illness last I checked....

Misplaced compassion? At least I have some compassion.....

 

[Merl]

Right.

But they're still human beings, some of whom can be saved/rehabilitated/helped. If we're going to call ourselves a just and "good" society, we have to try and help them.

You can't help those that don't want the help. Just like rehab for substance abuse. it won't work unless they want it too.

 

[Taurus]

You can't help those that don't want the help. Just like rehab for substance abuse. it won't work unless they want it too.

Yeah, but they still exist. There's these human beings right there on the street. What do we, as a society, do with them?

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

“Sub class of people “
Holy moley

 

[StudioSaint]

the current information published by The Oregonian based on the city of Portland's efforts is that only about 15% of the drug addicted squatting population see housing and drug abuse assistance. out of those 59% quit and go back to the streets withing the first 30 days.

Yes we do have an idea of the problem out here, as its very well documented all the money (hundreds of millions) spent by Portland, Seattle, SF and LA and the problem is getting worse, mainly because the unenforced camping and drug use laws have enabled this sub class of people to live they way want.

You can't seem to accept the fact that this lifestyle has become a choice, and not the result of them not getting that one helping hand that your misplaced compassion things they deserve.

You're mistaken about the underlying causes of the problem in Los Angeles, drug addiction is the least of the problem.

 

[StudioSaint]

I mean, the fact that someone seriously considers a mass shooting should make them mentally ill pretty much by definition, right?

And how do we know them don't/didn't have mental disorders that were undaignosed? There is a huge stigma around mental health in this country. I'm not sure how many of these shooters were properly evaluated. I know at least some were, such as the Sandy Hook shooter and I think the Parkland shooter.

This article can answer and explain better than I can.

Mental Illness and Gun Violence

Mental illness is often blamed following mass shootings in America. But experts say those with mental illness are rarely violent and social contagion is the biggest risk factor for gun violence.

www.healthline.com

“Blaming mental illness for the gun violence in our country is simplistic and inaccurate and goes against the scientific evidence currently available,” wrote Arthur C. Evans Jr., PhD, CEO of the American Psychological Association, in the APA statement.

He continued, “The United States is a global outlier when it comes to horrific headlines like the ones that consumed us all weekend. Although the United States makes up less than 5 percent of the world’s population, we are home to 31 percent of all mass shooters globally, according to a CNN analysis. This difference is not explained by the rate of mental illness in the U.S.”

 

[StudioSaint]

You can't seem to accept the fact that this lifestyle has become a choice, and not the result of them not getting that one helping hand that your misplaced compassion things they deserve.

Do you have a post graduate degree in psychology, psychiatry or social work? What exactly is your educational and career background that has lead you to this conclusion?

You can't help those that don't want the help. Just like rehab for substance abuse. it won't work unless they want it too.

This is true.

Now, how do you find out who will accept help?

 

[BobE]

 

[Saintman2884]

Studio, sometimes there are people who chose to be addicted or prefer their addictions because it helps them cope or deal with problems other alternatives might not be so effective at treating or they believe it doesn't relate to their specific problems. Most times, these addictions lead to a spiral of despair, pain, loss of jobs, homes, mental health, or even their lives. Jeff's logic is harsh, bitter, and maybe somewhat difficult to believe or accept for some people but don't be so naïve to think or let your emotions override that maybe he has some kernels of truth to it if you apply in moderate amounts. Nothing's wrong with being compassionate to your fellow man. But you can't help everyone in society who doesn't want that help or can't turn their lives around due to that help whether it's your family, friends, social programs funded by taxpayers and become respectable again. That doesn't mean we should stop trying but perhaps apply better, smarter strategies that put resources to good use, not wasting them. Help as many as possible, but don't being bitter, harsh, or judgmental to others who tell you there are those who can't be helped or reformed regardless of effort.

Studio, you think it's possible Jeff hasn't been posing the same questions to you and others in this thread: Seattle, Portland, LA, SF, other WC cities HAVE BEEN trying to help homeless, drug addicts, teenage runaways, many from broken homes or were abused emotionally, physically, or sexually. They've spent hundreds of millions of dollars in social programs designed to try and help them for decades. I'm sure many of these cities' officials, mayors, leaders have asked these same at-risk people: How and in what ways can we find people who want help and if they get it, they'll turn their lives around and become respected citizens of their communities, cities? That very same question you've asked they've also been asking (and investing money into it) as well. Is it being too harsh to ask how much more money should be spent on helping those who are reluctant to receive help, and turn their lives around responsibly. You ask Jeff if he has a PHD in psychiatry, psychology, or social work, well my rebuttal to you is how many social workers, psychiatrists, criminal psychologists, people who work in rehab treatment centers or halfway houses have you talked to or know personally who work or deal with these types of people on a daily basis and have extensive experience as in working for many years (5-10. 20 years) in the mental health field? I have a Bachelors Degree in Psychology and my area of specialty is Abnormal Psychology, abnormal or extreme behaviors exhibited by people who cover some of these topics, and have some comorbidity, some of the experts I talked to expressed opinions that weren't too different from what Jeff said in his posts in these threads.

 

[StudioSaint]

Saintman, next time please quote what I wrote, so that I know what you are referring too. It seems you're responding to several things I wrote and it's a bit difficult to follow what you are referring to.

Let's start by dispelling the myth that most homelessness is caused by addiction. It's not true. Studies and surveys consistently show about 21% of homelessness is caused by addiction. That means that around 79%, the vast majority, is not related to drug addiction.

Why are people homeless in Seattle?

Who is homeless because of personal struggles, and who is homeless because of economic reasons in Seattle? The answer isn't simple.

www.seattletimes.com

Newsletter: What you 'know' about homelessness is wrong

Good morning. I’m Paul Thornton, and it is Saturday, June 15, 2019.

www.latimes.com

Problem is, most individuals who experience homelessness don’t end up that way because of mental health issues or addiction. The crisis in Los Angeles County — where nearly 59,000 residents are homeless — is truly the product of California’s housing crisis, where wages have failed to keep up with rents rising ever higher because of inadequate supply. The L.A. Times editorial board explains in a myth-busting piece:...

New study says housing costs, lack of resources are core problems to homeless crisis

The study found two overlapping core problems. One is the recent spike in Portland's cost of housing and how it's forcing more than 56,000 households to spend more than half their income on rent.

www.kgw.com

As a result, the study found two overlapping core problems...One is the recent spike in Portland’s cost of housing and how it's forcing more than 56,000 households to spend more than half their income on rent...Tied to that, researchers pointed out funding to government subsidy programs have failed to keep up with rising rents...The other core cause of Portland’s crisis, according to the study, is the lack of resources aimed at getting the city’s “chronically homeless” off the streets.

Why San Francisco’s homeless population keeps increasing

The homelessness crisis is driven in part by a lack of housing and a roaring tech economy that has widened the inequity gap.

www.marketwatch.com

The San Francisco Bay Area is grappling with a homelessness crisis driven in part by too little housing stock and a raring tech economy that has widened the inequity gap. In San Francisco, the median price of a two-bedroom home is $1.3 million and a family of four earning $117,400 a year is considered low income. “We have an affordable housing crisis throughout California,” said Jen Loving, executive director of the nonprofit Destination: Home in Santa Clara County, where homelessness rose 31%.

Do you notice the most prevalent and common denominator in what causes homelessness? It isn't addiction.

Notice the common element missing in all these cities? Enough affordable housing and shelters for the homeless. It's a myth that most of them have been offered shelter, but refused it. There aren't enough shelters to make an offer to very many of them, let alone most.

Saintman, the addiction discussion is really is a moot point, since addiction only causes about 21% of homelessness. Since you took the time to write your post, I'll take the time to respond.

Studio, sometimes there are people who chose to be addicted or prefer their addictions because it helps them cope or deal with problems other alternatives might not be so effective at treating or they believe it doesn't relate to their specific problems.

Whether or not addiction is a choice or a disease is not a settled issue within the mental health profession. For every reputable mental health professional that says it's a choice, there's an equally reputable mental health professional that says it's a disease. From my personal experience and knowledge, I believe it is a combination of both for most people.

Jeff's logic is harsh, bitter, and maybe somewhat difficult to believe or accept for some people but don't be so naïve to think or let your emotions override that maybe he has some kernels of truth to it if you apply in moderate amounts.

Don't be so naïve to think or let your emotions lead you to believe that Jeff is working from a place of comprehensive knowledge and logic. It seems he's working from the perspective of having to move people away and clean up after them. That is less than an objective and well informed perspective.

Even you recognize the harshness and bitterness in his tone. That is not the tone of someone who is objective and it's not the tone of someone wanting moderate solutions.

Nothing's wrong with being compassionate to your fellow man.

True. And at the same time there is nothing right about being uncaring and indifferent toward fellow human beings who need help.

But you can't help everyone in society who doesn't want that help

True, but that's no excuse for not trying to help every individual until the point that the individual shows multiple times that they refuse to be helped. Jeff seems to think that none of the homeless can be helped, because "they've made a lifestyle choice to be homeless." That's absurd and ruthless. It also is hauntingly similar to how people dismiss those who don't follow "traditional" sexual and gender roles. Making it "their lifestyle choice" makes it easier to blame them, disrespect them and mistreat them. It's a time-test tried-and-true way of dehumanizing the "other" to justify treating our fellow human beings inhumanely.

...and become respectable again.

This mentality shows that, to some degree and on some level, you don't respect homeless people and/or people with addictions. When you stop respecting people, it makes it easier to stop caring about them and to treat them as less than human.

That doesn't mean we should stop trying but perhaps apply better, smarter strategies that put resources to good use, not wasting them.

You mention Los Angeles below. The biggest problem in Los Angeles is that everyone is blocking affordable housing and shelters from being built in their area. The Mayor was given money by taxpayers to build affordable housing and shelters, but he hasn't been able to spend it. In every article above, what's been missing from every solution and is needed the most is building affordable housing and shelters.

...don't being bitter, harsh, or judgmental to others...

How have I been bitter, harsh or judgemental to anyone?

Studio, you think it's possible Jeff hasn't been posing the same questions to you

What questions are you referring to?

Seattle, Portland, LA, SF, other WC cities HAVE BEEN trying to help homeless, drug addicts, teenage runaways, many from broken homes or were abused emotionally, physically, or sexually.

You just lumped a bunch of other issues into a homelessness discussion. I'll respond to just the homeless aspect of this statement.

Notice that the articles I posted at the top of the post are specifically regarding Seattle, Portland, LA and SF. As I previously pointed out, the primary cause of homelessness in those cities is affordable housing, not addiction. Those cities have not added enough affordable housing and shelters to get a significant number of the people into shelter. That's what is needed the most.

...and become respected citizens of their communities, cities?

And there's the lack of respect again. You can't really help someone and have true compassion for them if you don't respect them. How about we go ahead a respect them as human beings, instead of demanding that they first transform themselves into human beings worthy of our respect?

That very same question you've asked they've also been asking (and investing money into it) as well.

The only way to know if a person will accept help is to offer help. The help that homeless people need the most is a home. It's right there in the label we use for them. When they have been asked what they need the most, the majority of them have said they need a safe place to live. Most of them are not being offered that.

Is it being too harsh to ask how much more money should be spent on helping those who are reluctant to receive help, and turn their lives around responsibly.

The short answer is yes, it is too harsh.

The less short answer is that it's too harsh, because it creates the false assumption that most of them won't accept help. That assumption leads to the harshness of rationalizing and justifying that it's "a waste of resources" to bother with helping any of them. This leads to turning our backs on all of them, even though most of them would gladly accept and appreciate the help.

You ask Jeff if he has a PHD in psychiatry, psychology, or social work, well my rebuttal to you is how many social workers, psychiatrists, criminal psychologists, people who work in rehab treatment centers or halfway houses have you talked to or know personally who work or deal with these types of people on a daily basis and have extensive experience as in working for many years (5-10. 20 years) in the mental health field?

9 currently and roughly 30 through the years, including psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers. About 17 of them work exclusively in the filed of addiction therapy and treatment. I've gotten most of my information from them.

I've also have experience with over 50 people on the other side of addiction, those who actually have or are struggling with addiction. There is no quick fix to recovering from an addiction. The rehab clinic system is broken and is part of the problem. One of the most critical things someone needs is a strong, ongoing support group. Most rehab clinics don't provide or facilitate that. Most rehab clinics are really just short term detox clinics, but that's a another discussion.

I also know 3 people who manage affordable housing and shelters for the homeless, one of whom worked both here in LA and in Portland. They all confirm what the articles above say. Most of their tenants don't have addiction issues. They constantly have to turn away people seeking shelter, because they don't have enough units. They have long waiting list. Only a small percentage of their tenants go back to the street or get evicted for violating the tenant rules or the law.

I know it's only anecdotal, but it lines up with what empirical studies have shown and what all of the articles above say.

I also have personal experience with a drug addicted homeless person. Someone has been squatting in a vacant commercial building right next door to me and has been burglarizing and vandalizing the neighborhood for months. The police can't do anything unless they catch them in the act. My frustration, anger and perception at this person could easily be transferred to all of the homeless people that live in the area, but only if I let it. There are about 15 or so homeless people that live within a 4 block radius of me. Only 2 of them cause problems and make a mess.

I have a Bachelors Degree in Psychology and my area of specialty is Abnormal Psychology, abnormal or extreme behaviors exhibited by people who cover some of these topics, and have some comorbidity, some of the experts I talked to expressed opinions that weren't too different from what Jeff said in his posts in these threads.

Do they say that homelessness is mostly caused by the choice to be an addict?
Do they say that most of the homeless will refuse shelter and other help?
Do they say that most of the homeless are not worth trying to help?
Do they say that most addicts aren't worth trying to help?

What specifically have they said that echoes what Jeff said?