After the 1st two weeks of the season the Defense has given up 1025 yards of offense. (1 Viewer)

[diehardfan]

Peter Drucker once famously said that "Culture eats strategy for breakfast."

Think about Southwest Airlines relative to some of the larger legacy airlines that make roundtrips in and out of bankrupcty every other decade.

Your culture, and the expectations that your culture creates, have much more of an impact on how your team performs (whether in business, football, or whatever) than any one strategy.

Cover 2 vs Man to Man - that's strategy. What's missing from this team looks much more cultural to me.

Payton has changed every strategic aspect of defensive multiple times -
player personnel, defensive coaches, defensive schemes - he's changed it all, and none of it has worked. We're actually worse than when we started the (first) defensive rebuild.

I think its because there is a bad, bad culture on this team, especially on defense. Accountability seems to be very sporadic, which usually makes things worse if teammates see inconsistent treatment. Think about how Payton publicly trashed and threatened to trade Breaux - because he wouldn't play on a broken leg. You think players are gonna extend themselves for Payton with his $45M contract when they see that?

Bad culture starts at the top. Normally that would mean Benson, but from many reports, I think its safe to say Benson is not the day to day leader he once was (Hey, he's 90, it happens).

Payton is the face of the team, he's the highest paid coach in the NFL, and every bit of this team is reflection of HIS choices - he created the culture here (or maybe its more accurate to say he allowed to to occur). The massive disruptions from Bountygate and then epic failures in the draft and FA took what what was a really special culture (including the sub-culture of GW's defense*) and blew it into space.

I just can't tell if Payton can even see this.


*GW's defenses were a classic case of 'culture over strategy' - that was really the heart of Bountygate - GW created a strong culture on that unit that helped compensate for just OK talent. Unfortunately he couldn't co-exist with Payton and large parts of that culture weren't fit for public consumption.

Well said

 

[SweetT]

I never understood why Payton hired Spags, the poster child for a 4-3 defense, then fired him a year later saying he'd been thinking about switching to a 3-4 for some time because of its advantages in disguising things.

So, here comes Ryan. Then, after he gets fired, we go back to a 4-3.

Is anyone else as bewildered by all of this as I am?


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We had success with the 3-4 in the first season, but I think it was switched back to a 4-3 the next year, before Ryan was fired. I may be mistaken, but I'm sure that I remember thinking WTH???

 

[oodank]

Yeah how about the defense is just young man. Anazalone, Lattimore, Harris, Bell, PJ, Crawley, Williams, Onyemata, Rankins, Kiki...There's gonna be growing pains when you're putting it together young that's just what it is.

 

[LombardiGras]

Peter Drucker once famously said that "Culture eats strategy for breakfast."

Think about Southwest Airlines relative to some of the larger legacy airlines that make roundtrips in and out of bankrupcty every other decade.

Your culture, and the expectations that your culture creates, have much more of an impact on how your team performs (whether in business, football, or whatever) than any one strategy.

Cover 2 vs Man to Man - that's strategy. What's missing from this team looks much more cultural to me.

Payton has changed every strategic aspect of defensive multiple times -
player personnel, defensive coaches, defensive schemes - he's changed it all, and none of it has worked. We're actually worse than when we started the (first) defensive rebuild.

I think its because there is a bad, bad culture on this team, especially on defense. Accountability seems to be very sporadic, which usually makes things worse if teammates see inconsistent treatment. Think about how Payton publicly trashed and threatened to trade Breaux - because he wouldn't play on a broken leg. You think players are gonna extend themselves for Payton with his $45M contract when they see that?

Bad culture starts at the top. Normally that would mean Benson, but from many reports, I think its safe to say Benson is not the day to day leader he once was (Hey, he's 90, it happens).

Payton is the face of the team, he's the highest paid coach in the NFL, and every bit of this team is reflection of HIS choices - he created the culture here (or maybe its more accurate to say he allowed to to occur). The massive disruptions from Bountygate and then epic failures in the draft and FA took what what was a really special culture (including the sub-culture of GW's defense*) and blew it into space.

I just can't tell if Payton can even see this.


*GW's defenses were a classic case of 'culture over strategy' - that was really the heart of Bountygate - GW created a strong culture on that unit that helped compensate for just OK talent. Unfortunately he couldn't co-exist with Payton and large parts of that culture weren't fit for public consumption.

To add to this point. I think the culture collapsed during Bountygate because not only was the head coach removed, but at the same time we lost almost all of our veteran leadership on defense. Greer, Vilma, Smith all retired and we let Jenkins and Harper walk. Jenkins was a team captain, someone we drafted in the first round and developed, then abandoned to pay double the price for Byrd. With Jenkins gone we made a captain out of Junior Galette. How could the culture on defense ever survive something like that?

Trading away Graham was another example. Graham publicly said he wanted to retire with Brees, he was all in with the organization. He was a team favorite who we drafted and developed into an all world player, and Payton unceremoniously shipped him off without warning. That's a huge blow to the team mojo.

I think Payton's arrogance led him to believe everyone else was expendable, when the truth is you can't just get rid of important pillars on the team without having a collapse.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

To add to this point. I think the culture collapsed during Bountygate because not only was the head coach removed, but at the same time we lost almost all of our veteran leadership on defense. Greer, Vilma, Smith all retired and we let Jenkins and Harper walk. Jenkins was a team captain, someone we drafted in the first round and developed, then abandoned to pay double the price for Byrd. With Jenkins gone we made a captain out of Junior Galette. How could the culture on defense ever survive something like that?

Very true.

After Galette, we had Browner as captain, then Laurinaitis.

 

[Mardiboys]

This reminds me of Jason David. I remember when he was so bad that QBs did better passing against him than passing against a WR covered by "no defender." Maybe that could be a strategy.

In all seriousness, I don't know what they can do. All I know is that I will stop saying that "it can't get any worse."

 

[KCWhoDat]

My god that's like ULL vs Alabama type numbers, twice !!! This is comparable to bad college defenses, seriously. Freaking mind blowing how bad those numbers are....those kind of numbers deserve getting fired, don't care who you are. There have been better coaches fired for less....

 

[AllDay]

Yeah how about the defense is just young man. Anazalone, Lattimore, Harris, Bell, PJ, Crawley, Williams, Onyemata, Rankins, Kiki...There's gonna be growing pains when you're putting it together young that's just what it is.

Atlanta had a really young defense last season and it was decent. Why is it that our young defense has to be historically terrible? I'm not buying it. It's coaching, culture, and talent (or lack thereof)

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Peter Drucker once famously said that "Culture eats strategy for breakfast."

Think about Southwest Airlines relative to some of the larger legacy airlines that make roundtrips in and out of bankrupcty every other decade.

Your culture, and the expectations that your culture creates, have much more of an impact on how your team performs (whether in business, football, or whatever) than any one strategy.

Cover 2 vs Man to Man - that's strategy. What's missing from this team looks much more cultural to me.

Payton has changed every strategic aspect of defensive multiple times -
player personnel, defensive coaches, defensive schemes - he's changed it all, and none of it has worked. We're actually worse than when we started the (first) defensive rebuild.

I think its because there is a bad, bad culture on this team, especially on defense. Accountability seems to be very sporadic, which usually makes things worse if teammates see inconsistent treatment. Think about how Payton publicly trashed and threatened to trade Breaux - because he wouldn't play on a broken leg. You think players are gonna extend themselves for Payton with his $45M contract when they see that?

Bad culture starts at the top. Normally that would mean Benson, but from many reports, I think its safe to say Benson is not the day to day leader he once was (Hey, he's 90, it happens).

Payton is the face of the team, he's the highest paid coach in the NFL, and every bit of this team is reflection of HIS choices - he created the culture here (or maybe its more accurate to say he allowed to to occur). The massive disruptions from Bountygate and then epic failures in the draft and FA took what what was a really special culture (including the sub-culture of GW's defense*) and blew it into space.

I just can't tell if Payton can even see this.


*GW's defenses were a classic case of 'culture over strategy' - that was really the heart of Bountygate - GW created a strong culture on that unit that helped compensate for just OK talent. Unfortunately he couldn't co-exist with Payton and large parts of that culture weren't fit for public consumption.

I was thinking about this thread last night, and what a drastic turnaround we've seen in the last 2+ seasons. Specifically, since Week 3 of the 2017 season. After 3 straight 7-9 seasons and and 0-2 start, I was MORE THAN READY to clean house, get rid of the entire coaching staff, even trade off Drew. We were just mediocre at best, wasting Drew's twilight, and generally frustrating to watch.

Prior to Week 3 in 2017, the Saints had gone 21-29 in their prior 50 games.

Since Week 3 of 2017 (34-13 win @ CAR) the Saints have gone 30-8 and after surrendering over 500 yards per game to start 2017 they are now shutting teams down on the road, including @ SEA where we never win and @ CHI.

In 2017 I was thinking that the Saints culture was totally shot and needed to be revamped. I'm not exactly sure what happened, but it's a pretty amazing turnaround.

So this is me admitting that I'm glad we did not fire Payton in 2016 or 2017 like I wished we had. He figured something out and got us back on track. And I thought I would bump this thread for everyone to appreciate what's happening on D given how bad it was less than 3 years ago.

 

[26ISTHEMAN]

Nice bump. We had a pretty big overhaul in the coaching staff, but it seems that bringing Ireland in and hitting multiple home runs in the draft has been the catalyst.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Good post
I think the surface narrative is recent draft picks balling
But dig down a bit and it’s FA signings - bc the story is really about depth

So I guess the answer is Jeff Ireland

 

[duckjr78]

From what I remember, it was an INT from oft maligned PJ Williams that turned that Car. game around.

And yes, since that game, the Saints have been the clearest, most consistently solid team in the entire NFL. Kudos to Payton, Ireland, and the Benson family for getting us here today!

 

[GW93]

From what I remember, it was an INT from oft maligned PJ Williams that turned that Car. game around.

And yes, since that game, the Saints have been the clearest, most consistently solid team in the entire NFL. Kudos to Payton, Ireland, and the Benson family for getting us here today!

I’ll say it was a different moment in that Carolina game — the defense sacking Newton on a red zone 3rd down to force a field goal (I think they’d given up TDs to Minnesota and New England on their opening drives), THAT was when I knew we weren’t just going to win, we were going to win several in a row.

 

[Jimmie]

I’ll say it was a different moment in that Carolina game — the defense sacking Newton on a red zone 3rd down to force a field goal (I think they’d given up TDs to Minnesota and New England on their opening drives), THAT was when I knew we weren’t just going to win, we were going to win several in a row.

Yes I remember it well too - and then we strung 8 in a row?

 

[Jameth]

Since Week 3 of 2017 (34-13 win @ CAR) the Saints have gone 30-8...

30-7