Akeem Hicks case for playing 3-4 DE. (2 Viewers)

[DaDomePatrol]

Thank you! Ngata has played at DE the last 2 years!

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Y'all just aren't going to give up on the Ngata comparisons which is down right stupid. What in the world puts Hicks in the same breath as Ngata? He's heavy and athletic? Dude has basically no resemblance at all. Your wrong also because Ngata has still played primary NT and he is again. He shed some weight for 1 year and played some DE and said he felt weak and his production on tape showed it. He gained his 20 lbs back to be a better NT. So wrong and outrageous to make this comparison. Better comparison is Jay Ratliff for the Cowboys who is similar but even quicker. What Hicks has that he doesn't is Elite size for a NT. explain to me why RR didn't play Ratliff at te DE but preferred him at the NT? That guy could play DE in a 3-4 he's so athletic. NT is way more important then our 2nd DE. Hicks will get plenty of 3 tech playing time in Nickel, Dime, and other 4 man fronts we use. In our base 3-4 alignment he will not play DE!

 

[CitySaint]

Its all opinion but like i said...u have several guys tht can play 5/3 tech on the team

Cam Jordan/ Will Smith can play both
Walker/Johnson 3tech.

2can def play both and two can play 3tech. Thats 4 guys on the roster that can play 3 tech

Again....why does hicks HAVE to play 3tech?....just cuz we see him as a ngata type player?

No ones saying he cant but u guys are forcing him into the position @ the expense of creating a new need..


Say our starting front 3 .....BASE..is Will Smith/Bunkley-Hicks/Jordan

How much are we going to play in our base vs nickel?

Its not 50/50 by a long shot... more like 60/40 nickel..


What two guys in the above are going to see the field the least?

Bunkley n Smith

If ur argument is getting hicks on the field more then from my point of view he will.

Even though he isnt a starter he would obviously see the field MORE because of being a mainstay in the nickel/dime because Smith/Bunk would be Two down guys anyway?

I see the premise your making and the point of contention others are making that you want your best players on the field as often as possible. Hicks would fall into the category of being one of our best lineman. I'd rather see Smith and Johnson as 3 tech depth behind Hicks because he is a more talented 3 tech, than Hicks sitting behind Bunkley and limited to primarily pass downs and nickel defense as an interior player. I realize that in reality your projections will likely ring true, the Hicks fan in me wants the opposite to happen though.

 

[bornnraisedwhodat]

Y'all just aren't going to give up on the Ngata comparisons which is down right stupid. What in the world puts Hicks in the same breath as Ngata? He's heavy and athletic? Dude has basically no resemblance at all. Your wrong also because Ngata has still played primary NT and he is again. He shed some weight for 1 year and played some DE and said he felt weak and his production on tape showed it. He gained his 20 lbs back to be a better NT. So wrong and outrageous to make this comparison. Better comparison is Jay Ratliff for the Cowboys who is similar but even quicker. What Hicks has that he doesn't is Elite size for a NT. explain to me why RR didn't play Ratliff at te DE but preferred him at the NT? That guy could play DE in a 3-4 he's so athletic. NT is way more important then our 2nd DE. Hicks will get plenty of 3 tech playing time in Nickel, Dime, and other 4 man fronts we use. In our base 3-4 alignment he will not play DE!

Sigh. Did u see anyone say Hicks will be the next Ngata? What we are saying is just because Hicks is 330 doesnt mean he cant play DE. And like Ngata he is a extremely athletic 330.

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[uptbigdawg]

@DaDomePatrol
I dont see why you think Hicks is just a Nose Tackle. He may be 325lbs but he moves like he's 285lbs. Putting him at NT would be a waste in my opinion, if Haloti Ngata excels at multiple positions in a 3-4 at 340-350lbs Hicks can too because he's a good athlete. If he plays with pad level he can be a terror @ DE in the 3-4 alignment.

 

[SaintsJunkie]

yeah, but I also have the big guy burying a small center and requiring one of the guards to double team with help

 

[DaDomePatrol]

@DaDomePatrol
I dont see why you think Hicks is just a Nose Tackle. He may be 325lbs but he moves like he's 285lbs. Putting him at NT would be a waste in my opinion, if Haloti Ngata excels at multiple positions in a 3-4 at 340-350lbs Hicks can too because he's a good athlete. If he plays with pad level he can be a terror @ DE in the 3-4 alignment.

When did I say he was just a NT? I said he will be in our scheme and not a DE. Ngata is basically the only guy and he actually did not play well at DE and he even said it. He has since then put the weight back on to be a NT. I guess Jay Ratliff is a waste as a pro bowler because he plays NT. He is no more than 300 lbs and more athletic than Hicks. Putting him at 3tech is a waste if he can play NT like I expect him to. NT is more important than our 2nd DE. You obviously know nothing about football if you think any NT is a waste. LT is also a waste then because they score no TDs or do anything with stats. What the hell does Ngata have to do with Hicks? Nothing. Honestly Hicks has done absolutely nothing for you to make these assumptions. He barely got on the field as a 3tech for us last year! But all the sudden he is the greatest DE on earth and our missing piece. He's a NT all the way and I guarantee he is around 330-340. Explain why Ratliff waste his talents at NT and not 3tech please?

 

[SaintsJunkie]

Great post and it actually cements my argument tht he should play shaded nose in our base and then move him around in the nickel.

However my counter argument has nothing to do with his ability...but more to do with logic

Check out John Jenkins/Kwame Geathers stats from last year

They are eerily similar with Geathers getting more TFL/Sacks and Jenkins more Tackles

My point.....how important a 1-2 punch@ NT is.


If you slot hicks@ DE who on the roster plays nose with Bunk?

You have successfully created another hole on your roster.
We are in transition...the last thing we want to do is create holes.

Do u dip in FA and sign another Vet NT...after just doing so last year?
DO you spend a 3rd rounder on Brandon Williams...a small school prospect tht u have to project can he come in and play tht #2 spot @ NT....which is VERY important
Or do u spend a 1st on a guy like John Jenkins or Jonathan Hankins?

Id prefer not to.

Id prefer to keep the TWO GUYS already on the roster tht have proven they can play the shaded nose in our base 3-4 under. Then maybe draft a guy like Kwame Geathers in the 5th/6th n bring him along slowly as the 3rd NT.

Now..the next thing is how much time will we spend in our base front?

When we move to nickel..u can play hicks all over the front and have him play whtever technique u want.

For the sake of making the type of transition i wouldnt want to creat a hole@ NT when we already have two guys tht have proven they can play the shaded nose.we have several guys tht can play 5 and 3 tech on the roster....and as of right nw 2 that can play shaded nose in the base.

j
from reading the tea leaves , I think they will do exactly what you prefer.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

@DaDomePatrol
I dont see why you think Hicks is just a Nose Tackle. He may be 325lbs but he moves like he's 285lbs. Putting him at NT would be a waste in my opinion, if Haloti Ngata excels at multiple positions in a 3-4 at 340-350lbs Hicks can too because he's a good athlete. If he plays with pad level he can be a terror @ DE in the 3-4 alignment.

I find it funny u guys are debating over the NT position and then debating size.


WE ARE 1 Gapping

The NT@ no point will be "just tying up blockers". He is responsible for shooting his gap


The reason why we are 1 gapping is because we dont have 0 tech on the roster now.

So debating over whos going to tie up blockers@ NT is futile....as thts not the NTs job. If ur moving hicks fo RDE becausd u think it makes better use of his athleticism then thts ons thing but if ur doing it because u dont think tht same athleticism can be put to use @ the NT playing the 1 then ud be wrong.

Also...even though we will be playing the 1 tech...someone still has to two gap....its just not the nose

 

[DaDomePatrol]

I find it funny u guys are debating over the NT position and then debating size.


WE ARE 1 Gapping

The NT@ no point will be "just tying up blockers". He is responsible for his shooting his gap

Which plays to hicks strengths.....

Exactly in which I think he resembles Jay Ratliff more than anyone else in everyway except the elite size of Hicks. Hicks is so raw at any position so I doubt we have him bouncing around all over the line. His job will not just be tying up blockers like a Franklin. He will be busting through the middle and forcing 2 blocker in him every play. At DE to me he is being misused. He is very athletic but no so much for a DE. Which makes his athleticism so intriguing is because you are comparing him to other NTs which makes him have unlimited potential

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

Can anyone give a recent example of two players that are essentially nose tackles each playing 0 tech and 3 tech in a 1 gap defense? This is sounding like big bodies in a 2 gap more so than 1 gap. I enjoy the idea of forcing the guard to choose whether he will assist on Bunkley or on Hicks and whoever he doesn't choose gets mauled.

Seattle runs a 4-3 Under with three DTs. Red Byrant, Alan Branch, and Brandon Mebane - basically 3-4 personnel.

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

Great post and it actually cements my argument tht he should play shaded nose in our base and then move him around in the nickel.

However my counter argument has nothing to do with his ability...but more to do with logic

Check out John Jenkins/Kwame Geathers stats from last year

They are eerily similar with Geathers getting more TFL/Sacks and Jenkins more Tackles

My point.....how important a 1-2 punch@ NT is.


If you slot hicks@ DE who on the roster plays nose with Bunk?

You have successfully created another hole on your roster.
We are in transition...the last thing we want to do is create holes.

Do u dip in FA and sign another Vet NT...after just doing so last year?
DO you spend a 3rd rounder on Brandon Williams...a small school prospect tht u have to project can he come in and play tht #2 spot @ NT....which is VERY important
Or do u spend a 1st on a guy like John Jenkins or Jonathan Hankins?

Id prefer not to.

Id prefer to keep the TWO GUYS already on the roster tht have proven they can play the shaded nose in our base 3-4 under. Then maybe draft a guy like Kwame Geathers in the 5th/6th n bring him along slowly as the 3rd NT.

Now..the next thing is how much time will we spend in our base front?

When we move to nickel..u can play hicks all over the front and have him play whtever technique u want.

For the sake of making the type of transition i wouldnt want to creat a hole@ NT when we already have two guys tht have proven they can play the shaded nose.we have several guys tht can play 5 and 3 tech on the roster....and as of right nw 2 that can play shaded nose in the base.

I simply fail to understand how you create a roster hole by putting your best players on the field.

If Hicks isn't going to play the 3-tech, then who is? At this point, do you think Will Smith can go 1on1 with a guard for an entire game? We're talking players who could have anywhere from 20-50 pounds on him. Maybe Tom Johonson but he isn't the talent that Hicks is. I won't even listen to a Walker argument until I see the production on the field.

You've effectively created a hole at a "starting" position" by trying to create depth - I'm not sure I understand how that works.

We can easily acquire a vet NT in FA, we can look to the draft (like we did last year; it seemed to work out pretty well with the best defensive pick we've had in a while), but I doubt we spend a first. The scheme we run doesn't require that big two-gapping guy.

Also, you don't go into late round looking for a need. When you get to the fourth round (arguably third), it's strictly BPA - except in extremely cases like QB, punter, etc. It's all value and finding gems in those rounds.

Unless we plan to draft, Star Lotulelei, Shariff Floyd, or Sheldon Richardson, then our 3-tech isn't on the roster. You have to tell me who will play the position before you talking about putting Hicks (whose proven he can play the position) on the bench.

And I think you make a good point. How much time do we spend in base? Roughly 45-50%? One of the main goals of base is to create long nickel downs and stop the run (something we have SUCKED at). Why would you take one of your best run stoppers off the field in that situation? Again, it's not adding up.

At the end of the day, there is no way in the world you can convince me that Hicks needs to be on the bench for the sake of depth at NT - and I'm pretty sure the Saints feel the same way. If Hicks is on the bench, it's because he isn't the player I thought he was and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

You know how much I respect your opinion and what you post, but I can't buy this one.

 

[ETWhoDat]

Should we make him drop some weight and play OLB?



/Obligatorytrollpostoftheday

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

Its all opinion but like i said...u have several guys tht can play 5/3 tech on the team

Cam Jordan/ Will Smith can play both
Walker/Johnson 3tech.

2can def play both and two can play 3tech. Thats 4 guys on the roster that can play 3 tech

Again....why does hicks HAVE to play 3tech?....just cuz we see him as a ngata type player?

No ones saying he cant but u guys are forcing him into the position @ the expense of creating a new need..


Say our starting front 3 .....BASE..is Will Smith/Bunkley-Hicks/Jordan

Walker is a UDFA who has never played in a real NFL game, lets put the brakes on his hype.

Cam Jordan is an every down DE and can play 5-tech or 3-tech but is better at the former.

Tom Johnson is a good solid pass rusher from 3-tech but his run defense is lacking.

I'm not convinced Will Smith will hold up against a guard all game at his age.

If Hick isn't at the 3-tech, then your 3-tech isn't on your roster.

Also, I went and look at some Cowboy film and it's hard to get a handle on Ryan's tendencies without going extremely in-depth (this isn't surprising). Sometime he moves guys around, sometimes he don't. When the TE was on the left side of the offensive formation, Ware stayed on that side and was effectively the strongside OLB. This was on a run down and makes sense given Ware's ability to play the run. I would guess on run downs Ware stayed on the ROLB and on nickel downs, he moved to whatever side was the weakside (which makes total sense).

Also, Ryan gives a lot of two down lineman looks - I saw that in 2011 and 2012. That's something we'll have to look out for. In some cases he had two 5-techs and a 0-tech, in other cases he had a 0-tech, a 4-tech, and a 3-tech. The Cowboys F.O. complained about Ryan being "too multiple" in his fronts, and I'm beginning to see what they mean. This guy does it all!

 

[SaintsFanatic]

gonna not even read what you wrote and just give you a green thumb for all the pics

 

[7throundpick]

Great thread!!! I love these breakdowns and my understanding of the game has steadily been improving. I love Hicks, he is going to be really good! I'd love a break down of the other D linemen (even Smith who I'd like to know why he has not been doing as well lately)