Alex Smith questions whether defensive head coaches can develop quarterbacks (1 Viewer)

[liveoakh]

Bill Belichick, Sean McDermott, Mike Tomlin, and Pete Carroll are all very successful defensive coaches. 3 out of the 4 have championship rings and McDermott might have one in the near future. None of these guys hindered their All Pro QBs from lightning up a secondary and playing not to lose. John Harbaugh was a special teams guy before he was hired by Baltimore.

Doesn't really matter what side of the ball a head coach specializes in, all that really matters is how they can implement a winning culture, manage people, and acquire talent.

You miss the point though. The rule changes towards QBs and WRs have shifted the odds towards an offensive minded coach. While those coaches you mentioned were successful, they haven't played in, much less won a superbowl, except NE, and Brady won those, not Belichick. You have to go back to 2013 Seahawks, for a defensive minded coach to win a Superbowl W/ an elite defense and a non elite QB.

The only superbowl won by a defensive minded coach was Belicheck and he only won w/ Brady. I don't ever remember NE being close to the best defense. In the last 7 yrs Belichick, McDermott, Tomlin, Harbaugh haven't even sniffed a superbowl berth.

Can you see a trend?

KC 38 Philly 35
Rams 23 Cincy 20
TB 31 KC 20
KC 31 49ers 9
NE 13 Rams 3
Philly 41 NE 33
NE 34 Atl 28

 

[Rouxble]

You miss the point though. The rule changes towards QBs and WRs have shifted the odds towards an offensive minded coach. While those coaches you mentioned were successful, they haven't played in, much less won a superbowl, except NE, and Brady won those, not Belichick. You have to go back to 2013 Seahawks, for a defensive minded coach to win a Superbowl W/ an elite defense and a non elite QB.

The only superbowl won by a defensive minded coach was Belicheck and he only won w/ Brady. I don't ever remember NE being close to the best defense. In the last 7 yrs Belichick, McDermott, Tomlin, Harbaugh haven't even sniffed a superbowl berth.

Can you see a trend?

KC 38 Philly 35
Rams 23 Cincy 20
TB 31 KC 20
KC 31 49ers 9
NE 13 Rams 3
Philly 41 NE 33
NE 34 Atl 28

The Patriots definitely had good defense in all of their Super Bowl winning years. Here were their ranks for scoring defense on a per-drive basis (the fairest way to rank a defense since the number of drives is not in their control).

2001 - 6th
2003 - 1st
2004 - 4th
2014 - 8th
2016 - 2nd
2018 - 7th

The worst scoring defense that Brady had in his Super Bowl winning years was 8th best in the league. That's not to take away from Brady, but to make sure that Belichick gets the credit he is due. Belichick has the kind of record post-Brady that you would hope a coach could achieve in the NFL without a clear cut franchise QB on the roster. He is .500, it's not like the Patriots turned in to a bottom of the barrel losing franchise after Brady left.

 

[jahsoul357]

The Pats had a stretch for a while with one of the most potent offenses in the league. They were a fluke play from being the greatest team of all time in 2007 when Brady and Moss nearly unstoppable. The last half of their championships were mostly driven by Brady and their offense.

Warner and Fitzgerald shredded that Steelers defense in 2008 and nearly won. Big Ben had 30 pass attempts in that game and Santonio Holmes had 9 catches for 131. Tomlin trusted his QB and put the game on the back of Roethlisberger at the end. He's also 5th all time in passing yards and 8th all time in TDs

Wilson was one of the best deep ball throwers for a while. He was equally as important as the LoB was to their run.

The last Super Bowl the Patriots won, they beat the Rams 13-3...lol. Even in 2007, they had the #4 defense in the league.

Regarding

Russ' moon ball was glorious. Doesn't negate the fact that heading into the Super Bowl, Beast Mode was responsible for most of the touchdowns and in the Super Bowl, the score was 29-0 before Russ threw a single TD.

While those coaches you mentioned were successful, they haven't played in, much less won a superbowl, except NE, and Brady won those, not Belichick. You have to go back to 2013 Seahawks, for a defensive minded coach to win a Superbowl W/ an elite defense and a non elite QB.

The only superbowl won by a defensive minded coach was Belicheck and he only won w/ Brady. I don't ever remember NE being close to the best defense. In the last 7 yrs Belichick, McDermott, Tomlin, Harbaugh haven't even sniffed a superbowl berth.

Can you see a trend?

TB 31 KC 20
NE 13 Rams 3

We might need to go back and revisit those Patriots team. They were usually a top 5 through top 10 defense their Super Bowl seasons and half of their Super Bowl were on the defense (including their first and their last. They also beat the Eagles because of defense).

 

[sfidc3]

Tomlin, Belichek, and others are defensive minded coaches for sure but there is a big difference between a defensive coach that hamstrings their offense (showing an obvious lack of confidence) and those that let their offensive coaches do their job......

I believe both have had OC's that have gone onto HC jobs, correct?

 

[Rouxble]

Tomlin, Belichek, and others are defensive minded coaches for sure but there is a big difference between a defensive coach that hamstrings their offense (showing an obvious lack of confidence) and those that let their offensive coaches do their job......

I believe both have had OC's that have gone onto HC jobs, correct?

That, and they had good continuity in their offensive staff. Brady and Roethlisberger both really only had three playcallers over their entire careers.

Brady had Weis, McDaniels, and O’Brien over a 19-year span.

Big Ben had Whisenhunt, Arians, and Haley over a 14-year span. Forgot the coach that came after them.

I think Smith’s point is that good OC’s don’t stick around that long anymore, if they get a young QB to have a good year, they get plucked up as a HC to help a young QB on another team.

 

[jahsoul357]

That, and they had good continuity in their offensive staff. Brady and Roethlisberger both really only had three playcallers over their entire careers.

Brady had Weis, McDaniels, and O’Brien over a 19-year span.

Big Ben had Whisenhunt, Arians, and Haley over a 14-year span. Forgot the coach that came after them.

I think Smith’s point is that good OC’s don’t stick around that long anymore, if they get a young QB to have a good year, they get plucked up as a HC to help a young QB on another team.

Freaking awesome point.

 

[sfidc3]

That, and they had good continuity in their offensive staff. Brady and Roethlisberger both really only had three playcallers over their entire careers.

Brady had Weis, McDaniels, and O’Brien over a 19-year span.

Big Ben had Whisenhunt, Arians, and Haley over a 14-year span. Forgot the coach that came after them.

I think Smith’s point is that good OC’s don’t stick around that long anymore, if they get a young QB to have a good year, they get plucked up as a HC to help a young QB on another team.

Yup, lots of stability.....and totally agree on OC's being hot commodities....also, not that I'm all for it, I think a lot of the rule changes favoring offense is not helping the game....at all.....what's called as PI and defensive holding can be absolute jokes.....

 

[liveoakh]

The Patriots definitely had good defense in all of their Super Bowl winning years. Here were their ranks for scoring defense on a per-drive basis (the fairest way to rank a defense since the number of drives is not in their control).

2001 - 6th
2003 - 1st
2004 - 4th
2014 - 8th
2016 - 2nd
2018 - 7th

The worst scoring defense that Brady had in his Super Bowl winning years was 8th best in the league. That's not to take away from Brady, but to make sure that Belichick gets the credit he is due. Belichick has the kind of record post-Brady that you would hope a coach could achieve in the NFL without a clear cut franchise QB on the roster. He is .500, it's not like the Patriots turned in to a bottom of the barrel losing franchise after Brady left.

You make a compelling case, but what did Brady do? He left and won an instant super bowl at bottom feeding TB, and Belichick can't even get above .500. It just proves my point. Offensive minded coaches win in today's NFL and defensive coaches really don't. The only anomaly in the last 7 super bowls is Tom Brady and Belichick. You could scream Belichick and defense won those super bowls w/ Defense till the cows come home. No one will believe you, because of Brady.

 

[Rouxble]

You make a compelling case, but what did Brady do? He left and won an instant super bowl at bottom feeding TB, and Belichick can't even get above .500. It just proves my point. Offensive minded coaches win in today's NFL and defensive coaches really don't. The only anomaly in the last 7 super bowls is Tom Brady and Belichick. You could scream Belichick and defense won those super bowls w/ Defense till the cows come home. No one will believe you, because of Brady.

You're missing the point, .500 over three seasons is a good record in the NFL if you don't have a franchise QB. It's not easy to win games in the league, and it's even harder when you have to start a washed up Cam Newton, an inexperienced Mac Jones, or an even more inexperienced Bailey Zappe. Even Andy Reid, considered a saint among offensive coaches, has a losing record when starting a QB that wasn't drafted in the first round. Having talent under center will affect any coach's chances.

And Tampa Bay was 7-9 the year before, I wouldn't consider that bottom feeding. They had the 9th best scoring offense the year before Brady got there, and improved to the 5th best after he and Gronkowski got there. Was that enough to get them a ring?

Or was it the fact that they went from to the 17th best scoring defense to the 6th best scoring defense? They held Reid and Mahomes to nine points after they had averaged 30 points/game in their other two playoff matchups.

Which adds to the point that Brady has never won without a top eight scoring defense.

 

[tomwaits]

to develop your QB....true. but come gametime, if the OC/QB want to light up the scoreboard, but the HC wants you to throttle down and turn it into a grindfest/war of attrition....you throttle down, or you won't be there long.

Unless you are successful.

 

[dtc]

I honestly have more of an issue with the ultra conservative nature of Allen. I'm going to hope that a new QB may give him some confidence to be more aggressive.


Granted.... If it extremely noticeable that Allen hasn't changed. Regardless of W/L... I'll think it maybe in the best interest to move on after this season. I've just never seen an ultra conservative coach ever win a championship.

DA runs one of the most aggressive Ds in the league. There are constant schemes hidden and choices. He runs exotic blitzes out of nowhere and drops DEs into coverage.

Where does the idea that he's ultra-conservative come from other than play calling last year while we had a relic as QB and a bunch of undrated nobodies as weapons?

 

[Rouxble]

we had a relic as QB

This might be the best description I’ve seen of what we put on the field last year.

 

[Taker597]

DA runs one of the most aggressive Ds in the league. There are constant schemes hidden and choices. He runs exotic blitzes out of nowhere and drops DEs into coverage.

Where does the idea that he's ultra-conservative come from other than play calling last year while we had a relic as QB and a bunch of undrated nobodies as weapons?

The last time I checked.. Dennis Allen is a head coach not a defensive coordinator. He make calls on offense and defense like every coach.

-Multiple blown leads
-Punting with a two point
-had the most punts in opponent
-least amount of 4th down attempts with 11 on the whole season






If only all these amazing defensive coaches with terrible ultra conservative offenses could use the same excuse.

 

[jahsoul357]

You make a compelling case, but what did Brady do? He left and won an instant super bowl at bottom feeding TB, and Belichick can't even get above .500. It just proves my point. Offensive minded coaches win in today's NFL and defensive coaches really don't. The only anomaly in the last 7 super bowls is Tom Brady and Belichick. You could scream Belichick and defense won those super bowls w/ Defense till the cows come home. No one will believe you, because of Brady.

I don't know if you realize this but their defense play a MAJOR role in them making it to the Super Bowl. They only beat us because of defense, as they scored all of their touchdowns on turnovers. They held down the Packers after Brady threw 3 straight interceptions, and we aren't even going to talk about what that defense did to the Chiefs broken offensive line (and a little help from the refs..lol). The Bucs won that Super Bowl because of defense and that's why Todd Bowles got that new contract.

True story; if the 2019 Bucs defense played as good as they did the back half of the season and in 2020, they would have won 10-11 games.

 

[liveoakh]

I don't know if you realize this but their defense play a MAJOR role in them making it to the Super Bowl. They only beat us because of defense, as they scored all of their touchdowns on turnovers. They held down the Packers after Brady threw 3 straight interceptions, and we aren't even going to talk about what that defense did to the Chiefs broken offensive line (and a little help from the refs..lol). The Bucs won that Super Bowl because of defense and that's why Todd Bowles got that new contract.

True story; if the 2019 Bucs defense played as good as they did the back half of the season and in 2020, they would have won 10-11 games.

If what you are saying is true. Where are those headlines saying XYZ defense won those superbowls? No where! But, that isn't the point I'm making. What I am saying is the rule changes tilt the odds of a Superbowl towards the offensive minded coach /QB. You can see it in the hiring over the last 5 yrs. The Offensive minded coaches have been given the jobs at 2x the rate of defensive minded coaches.

TB loses.........gets good w/ Brady.... Brady leaves... TB is bad again. Brady was the straw that stirred the drink at TB. It wasn't the defense.