An Interesting Counter-Argument to the Winston "Hate" (1 Viewer)

[ElGatoNegro]

Actually let's do a little comparison.

Manning in first 5 season = 100 total INT's (one year throwing 28)
Winston in first 5 season = 88 total INT's (one year throwing 30)

Mannings first five seasons were ages ago, the game was way different then.

There’s No One Reason for the NFL’s Offensive Explosion

Teams are moving the ball and scoring at rates we’ve never seen before. But it’s not just the rule changes or a few elite teams that are behind the shift—a confluence of factors are changing the league as we know it.

www.theringer.com

"
The first and most obvious explanation for this incredible spike in production is the combination of rule tweaks and points of emphasis the NFL enacted for 2018. The new “helmet rule” applies to everyone on the field but most strongly benefits pass catchers and runners, who are now protected from hits defenders initiate with the helmet. The catch rules have been softened, too: Players no longer have to control the ball through the ground, and slight movement of it throughout the process of a catch is no longer automatically seen as a loss of control. Additionally, the league made illegal contact downfield a point of emphasis, and the highly controversial body-weight rules for hitting quarterbacks give passers an added layer of protection.

All of these changes favor offense, even if their well-intentioned purpose is principally to improve the safety of the game. Quarterbacks can now stand in the pocket more confidently than ever, knowing they’re less likely to get clobbered by a defender. Receivers can roam the middle of the field with relative ease, knowing those knockout hits from safeties are now outlawed. And, while this is still flying under the radar, it’s increasingly difficult for defenders to even touch opposing pass catchers at all, as illegal contact penalties have tripled year over year. Put together, we’ve seen a historic rate of penalty-induced first downs in 2018—leading to more yards and points for offenses around the league."

 

[ccss]

I never once defended Manning in this thread. Foh with that nonsense. If Manning did in fact do what the accusations say he did then I sincerely believe he should be prosecuted for them. If anything, the fact that you're trying to desperately deflect from your hero Jameis' rapey stuff is a pretty clear indicator that you think he should be allowed to get away with it. I never defended Manning in any way but you dragged that shirt in out of left field to try to misrepresent things when you literally could've straight up asked me something like "Hey dude, if you're so intent on Jameis being held accountable, then what's your opinion of Manning's accusations?"

Also, your entire argument is desperately trying to cry from the hilltops "Hey! Jameis is okay cuz people let Manning slide!" since you clearly tried to go tit for tat with the stuff in your post I quoted but conveniently left out the fact that he had another sexual assault accusation back at FSU. Care to keep defending a potential rapist or are you just gonna drop it and stop making a fool of yourself?

Wow! All I said, or intended to point out was that, in addition to football statistics they kinda have parallel accusations indicating character issues. They, both, were accused of serious wrongdoings, however they are viewed by some in an entirely different light. Why?

Because of that I am being labelled a Jameis lover? I did not even indicate whether or not I thought he was a good quarterback. Where did that accusation come from? I know I have heard statements like that before in similar circumstances .... where oh where?

 

[black_floyd]

I'd say once someone has multiple accusations of sexual assault it becomes pretty hard to give them the benefit of the doubt. As of now, it certainly doesn't make Peyton look good for having that accusation and he should be prosecuted if he did it. The main difference is that he's in the ambiguous area of not knowing for sure whether he did it whereas JW moved the needle a bit more into guilty territory with the second accusation. If any further accusations occur against Peyton then I move him right into that same category. Neither can 100% be considered angels at this point but one has a bigger mountain to climb to clear his name for sure.

As for the HGH thing, it's unethical but it's hard to take your concern about that seriously until you can provide links proving that you actually gave a damn about it before this thread. Otherwise, it 100% comes off as grasping at straws via the implied reasoning that JW should be given leniency for "allegedly" violating women due to his similarities to Peyton.

 

[Floridalsusaintsfan]

Dude, just go get an "It's totally cool for athletes to commit sexual assault" shirt already. You sound like a lawyer in a cheap suit looking for loopholes to get a murder acquittal.

Hum... Grabbing an Uber driver's crotch?

 

[black_floyd]

Not sure what you're asking or what point you're trying to make with that minimal phrasing.

 

[Walter White]

Lol you seem to be the one worked up about it but keep projecting if it helps you cope. I have faith in you.

Mannings first five seasons were ages ago, the game was way different then.

There’s No One Reason for the NFL’s Offensive Explosion

Teams are moving the ball and scoring at rates we’ve never seen before. But it’s not just the rule changes or a few elite teams that are behind the shift—a confluence of factors are changing the league as we know it.

www.theringer.com

"
The first and most obvious explanation for this incredible spike in production is the combination of rule tweaks and points of emphasis the NFL enacted for 2018. The new “helmet rule” applies to everyone on the field but most strongly benefits pass catchers and runners, who are now protected from hits defenders initiate with the helmet. The catch rules have been softened, too: Players no longer have to control the ball through the ground, and slight movement of it throughout the process of a catch is no longer automatically seen as a loss of control. Additionally, the league made illegal contact downfield a point of emphasis, and the highly controversial body-weight rules for hitting quarterbacks give passers an added layer of protection.

All of these changes favor offense, even if their well-intentioned purpose is principally to improve the safety of the game. Quarterbacks can now stand in the pocket more confidently than ever, knowing they’re less likely to get clobbered by a defender. Receivers can roam the middle of the field with relative ease, knowing those knockout hits from safeties are now outlawed. And, while this is still flying under the radar, it’s increasingly difficult for defenders to even touch opposing pass catchers at all, as illegal contact penalties have tripled year over year. Put together, we’ve seen a historic rate of penalty-induced first downs in 2018—leading to more yards and points for offenses around the league."

Great points but let's be honest here. The point of QB's being able to stand in the pocket confidently doesn't apply when you have a terrible offensive line. Most of last season Winston was running for his life. That was one of the knocks on Tampa for a while.

We can also debate the fact that Peyton Manning actually benefitted from the changes in the game as well. He threw 17 INT's in 2010 and that was during his prime.

 

[Sumdude34]

Jameis is very talented. He plays a lot like Big Ben (which I know is ironic because both of them have a history will sexual assault allegations). Hard to bring down, cannon arms, put up a lot of yards and TDs. But they also make horrible decisions and force a lot of turnovers. I know Ben has had a few 500 yard games and he may have the record for most yards in a game, I'm not sure. Either way, that's the comparison for Jameis, not Peyton.

I get what the author is trying to say. I'm not trying to dismiss the larger point that race may play a role in how many chances Jameis gets. But trying to say that if you don't compare him to Peyton then it's because you have a problem with his race is stretch. I could understand that argument if he replaced Peyton with Big Ben.

 

[ccss]

I'd say once someone has multiple accusations of sexual assault it becomes pretty hard to give them the benefit of the doubt. As of now, it certainly doesn't make Peyton look good for having that accusation and he should be prosecuted if he did it. The main difference is that he's in the ambiguous area of not knowing for sure whether he did it whereas JW moved the needle a bit more into guilty territory with the second accusation. If any further accusations occur against Peyton then I move him right into that same category. Neither can 100% be considered angels at this point but one has a bigger mountain to climb to clear his name for sure.

As for the HGH thing, it's unethical but it's hard to take your concern about that seriously until you can provide links proving that you actually gave a damn about it before this thread. Otherwise, it 100% comes off as grasping at straws via the implied reasoning that JW should be given leniency for "allegedly" violating women due to his similarities to Peyton.

I did not say, nor imply that either one should be eligible for leniency, in fact, if they had not been star athletes, they both probably would have been prosecuted .... as they should have been. In this country we have different standards for different people. Words are simply a hook on which to hang meaning ... please don't hang me on the wrong hook. I said exactly what I meant. As discussed, both on the field and off, their records are very similar.

 

[MV2]

Stealing crab legs is a mistake. "Allegedly" sexually violating a woman in a confined space isolated from any other people whom might be able to intervene is way different. Also, if you think people that you deem worse than him being allowed to stay in the NFL justifies him being allowed to play then you've got it very backwards. If anything, the players who've done something "worse" shouldn't be allowed in at all and neither should he. I put worse in quotes because that's your opinion and not mine. Aside from that, it makes me sick to see that there are people that actually think there are things way worse than sexual assault that exist. Rape is right up there with murder. Lastly, it's pretty disturbing that you say people that hold him accountable for this make you sick but clearly violating a basically defenseless woman doesn't. You're basically implying that rape victims should just get over it so this poor young man can get on with his life and make millions and never learn any lessons.

You make alot of assumptions here and interject your own opinion as fact. Big Ben was accused of rape and will be in the HOF one day. I can only label Jameis as accused since he was never convicted. If you view him as guilty then you are using your own opinion as law.

You put rape up there with Murder. I don't. I think that's a silly comparison. I'm not discrediting the experience of being raped and the trauma associated with it, but it's far from murder.

Once again, you feel he is guilty but he was never convicted. And she took the money not the pursuit of justice. So did it really happen or was it a money thing? Hmmm......

You've put alot of words in my mouth and yes people who judge others as if they have been perfect do make me sick. I know that there are many men who have made sexual mistakes in their college days and grew up to be great men. Everybody deserves the chance to get this thing called life right and you and I are not the moral authority to place judgement on someone for something they "allegedly" did over 5 years ago. Let it go. He has and I'm sure the nearly 1 million dollar payout she accepted has helped her to move on with her life as well.

 

[ElGatoNegro]

Great points but let's be honest here. The point of QB's being able to stand in the pocket confidently doesn't apply when you have a terrible offensive line. Most of last season Winston was running for his life. That was one of the knocks on Tampa for a while.

We can also debate the fact that Peyton Manning actually benefitted from the changes in the game as well. He threw 17 INT's in 2010 and that was during his prime.

Maybe winston was running for his life because he can't progress through his reads fast enough? Maybe he can't read the defense properly pre-snap and identify where his quick outs are? Maybe he can't adjust pre-snap to call a play he can confidently execute? Maybe it's cause he doesn't like throwing wide open 3yd routes, preferring instead to take 50/50 chances on a 70yd completion or an interception on any given play.

Regardless of what the reason is for the constant pressure he is facing, two things are clear as day to me.

1) Guy is dumb as a rock
2) He makes HORRIBLE decisions. Whether its sexual assault, shop lifting or throwing into triple coverage. The guy is his own worst enemy and lacks the mental facilities to distinguish good choices from bad ones.

 

[ElGatoNegro]

You make alot of assumptions here and interject your own opinion as fact. Big Ben was accused of rape and will be in the HOF one day. I can only label Jameis as accused since he was never convicted. If you view him as guilty then you are using your own opinion as law.

You put rape up there with Murder. I don't. I think that's a silly comparison. I'm not discrediting the experience of being raped and the trauma associated with it, but it's far from murder.

Once again, you feel he is guilty but he was never convicted. And she took the money not the pursuit of justice. So did it really happen or was it a money thing? Hmmm......

You've put alot of words in my mouth and yes people who judge others as if they have been perfect do make me sick. I know that there are many men who have made sexual mistakes in their college days and grew up to be great men. Everybody deserves the chance to get this thing called life right and you and I are not the moral authority to place judgement on someone for something they "allegedly" did over 5 years ago. Let it go. He has and I'm sure the nearly 1 million dollar payout she accepted has helped her to move on with her life as well.

I agree 100% that he deserves another chance as long as he hasn't been found guilty. And by another chance I mean another chance at going about life without grabbing more woman by the privates. Not a chance at leading any given football team. That is a privilege that is earned. And sure, maybe the Bengals or the Browns won't care about all the allegations. But I sure hope the Saints do.

Also, regardless of whether he was found guilty or not, it sure behooves any potential employer to consider whether they believe that the accusations are likely to be true and what that says about his character. And if I were the one making these decisions it looks to me that there is probably some truth to these allegations (the uber driver wasn't the first one), and I sure as hell wouldn't want him anywhere near my locker room.

 

[Walter White]

Maybe winston was running for his life because he can't progress through his reads fast enough? Maybe he can't read the defense properly pre-snap and identify where his quick outs are? Maybe he can't adjust pre-snap to call a play he can confidently execute? Maybe it's cause he doesn't like throwing wide open 3yd routes, preferring instead to take 50/50 chances on a 70yd completion or an interception on any given play.

Regardless of what the reason is for the constant pressure he is facing, two things are clear as day to me.

1) Guy is dumb as a rock
2) He makes HORRIBLE decisions. Whether its sexual assault, shop lifting or throwing into triple coverage. The guy is his own worst enemy and lacks the mental facilities to distinguish good choices from bad ones.

If you're going off of Maybe then maybe the same could be said for Manning in his 1st five seasons. Maybe.

1.) That makes no sense. He's been good at every level he's played at.
2.) Maybe so but for other QB's we call them gunslingers. I don't care about his personal life.

 

[mccombmike]

I don't have a problem with the idea that Winston has a lot of physical talent and could possibly be coached up. For that, he would be a good backup, and could get the time to develop into a quality player.

But the rape thing will always be a problem for me. No, he was never convicted. But I thought the whole MeToo thing showed that many women are assaulted, and that the perpetrators are rarely prosecuted. Remember even Payton Manning was accused of sexually harassing a female trainer when he was at Tennessee. That fact is totally forgotten by most people.

I watched "Inglourious Basterds" the other day and was surprised to see Harvey Weinstein's name as the producer. All the terrible things that man was doing and he was producing top level Hollywood movies with Quintin Tarantino and Brad Pitt.

You can't assume just because the person wasn't charged that nothing happened. You could argue that people deserve a second chance, but since Winston hasn't even faced his accuser in a fair trial, we can't say he was exonerated either.

Given all that, I don't want him on the Saints. Ever. There are plenty of ways to get a good QB. I'd rather some other way than picking up an alleged rapist from the scrap heap who no one else wants.

 

[MV2]

I agree 100% that he deserves another chance as long as he hasn't been found guilty. And by another chance I mean another chance at going about life without grabbing more woman by the privates. Not a chance at leading any given football team. That is a privilege that is earned. And sure, maybe the Bengals or the Browns won't care about all the allegations. But I sure hope the Saints do.

Also, regardless of whether he was found guilty or not, it sure behooves any potential employer to consider whether they believe that the accusations are likely to be true and what that says about his character. And if I were the one making these decisions it looks to me that there is probably some truth to these allegations (the uber driver wasn't the first one), and I sure as hell wouldn't want him anywhere near my locker room.

He deserves another chance at life whether that's in the league or not. I'm sure he was passed on in the draft and is being passed on now because of his past. But I'm a strong believer in growth and healing and the person we can become. We introduce prisoners back into society all the time with the hopes that they have been "rehabilitated" and no longer a threat to society. He has kept his nose clean for years. His teammates seem to like him and he has some talent and deserves to be on a roster. If these issues occurred while he was in the League I would understand him not having a job, but it was before and he was hired afterwards and has been clean since. Just my opinion.

 

[No2DC]

He should run for president and all will be forgotten