Another police shooting - this time in Wisconsin... (3 Viewers)

[St. Widge]

Sadly my aunt has balls.

TMI Roddy.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Probably not ever will we have apples to apples, but if the black teen is there and the entire night is practically on video and it shows what they showed in this Case, then yea he would get off on self defense.

Maybe, but I doubt the beginning or end would have been the same.

For starters, I don't believe a black teen with an AR15 at a Unite the Right rally would have been given water by police and patted on the back. They would have tried to find a reason to make him leave. His ID would have been run hoping they could find something, anything, to keep the peace.

If they couldn't find a reason to leave they would have stayed close hoping to prevent conflict.

After the shooting, if he would have run up to police with that weapon he wouldn't have been ignored. He would have been detained and after being told he shot someone taken into custody.

Would he have been found not guilty? I think it depends on the jury, human nature being what it is. A kid that doesn't look like your son shooting people that do come in to play. That's not racism, it's just people's natural inclination to relate to things that look like them. I think in similar circumstances you probably have a hung jury.

All speculation of course. I hope we never find out the actual answer to any of this.

 

[DaveXA]

I’m overly emotional because false equivalencies make me very very sad
Thanks for making me cry this morning

But just in case you really don’t get it, imagine a young black male arming himself with a AK type weapon (you could really just stop here if you wanted) and provoking confrontation at a Charlottesville type rally

I suspect he would have been shot dead before walking away from a self-defense attempt. Either that or he gets arrested when he walks or runs into the cops, unlike KR.

But that said, it's a hypothetical and one happened and one could potentially happen.

 

[kcirdor]

Maybe, but I doubt the beginning or end would have been the same.

For starters, I don't believe a black teen with an AR15 at a Unite the Right rally would have been given water by police and patted on the back. They would have tried to find a reason to make him leave. His ID would have been run hoping they could find something, anything, to keep the peace.

If they couldn't find a reason to leave they would have stayed close hoping to prevent conflict.

After the shooting, if he would have run up to police with that weapon he wouldn't have been ignored. He would have been detained and after being told he shot someone taken into custody.

Would he have been found not guilty? I think it depends on the jury, human nature being what it is. A kid that doesn't look like your son shooting people that do come in to play. That's not racism, it's just people's natural inclination to relate to things that look like them. I think in similar circumstances you probably have a hung jury.

All speculation of course. I hope we never find out the actual answer to any of this.

If the black teen is one of around 100 people with an AR15 there to protect the businesses from rioting and looting. You gotta keep it apples and apples.

 

[not2rich]

I’m fairly certain KR pointed his weapon at another person(s) based on video evidence and an interview with someone before the trial (not sure if that person testified at the trial as I have heard nothing about it re: the trial).

Again not sure if it was in the trial but people who were with Rosenbaum said that was why Rosenbaum got so agitated with KR in the first place.

I'm not clear on when/whether/what circumstances KR may have pointed his weapon at some point earlier in sequence of events. I think he likely pointed it at Rosenbaum at some point before firing his first shot, but if he pointed the weapon at Rosenbaum because he was chasing or advancing toward him in an aggressive manner, that's a lot different than pointing a weapon at someone who is not being aggressive or confrontational.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

If the black teen is one of around 100 people with an AR15 there to protect the businesses from rioting and looting.

We aren't going to agree on this point, but if there were around 100 armed black men with AR15's in Charlottesville police would have shut that down quickly. They didn't here because of what was being protested and the perception that 100 white men with AR15's aren't going to get violent. 100 black men with AR15's wouldn't be given the same latitude. There was a video recently where a black man and a white man walked through the same neighborhood with an AR15. Police stopped them both, but were much nicer and less accusatory of one vs. the other.

This is certainly an agree to disagree moment though. We are coming from vastly different perspectives and don't have a close enough conversational starting point for productive discourse on it.

 

[V Chip]

Just saying those cases are not apples to apples. In fact, I don't think there is an apples-to-apples comparison out there.

Exactly.

I mean if you want to compare these two events even though they’re not remotely similar… how many times did the police shoot at KR after he fired his gun? In the Coffee case they shot at him at least 10 times, killing his girlfriend. In the Stallings case, police shot him *first*.

 

[kcirdor]

I'm not clear on when/whether/what circumstances KR may have pointed his weapon at some point earlier in sequence of events. I think he likely pointed it at Rosenbaum at some point before firing his first shot, but if he pointed the weapon at Rosenbaum because he was chasing or advancing toward him in an aggressive manner, that's a lot different than pointing a weapon at someone who is not being aggressive or confrontational.

From watching the case, there was guy jumping on a car, and apparently KR pointed his weapon in his direction, earlier in the night.

 

[not2rich]

I’m overly emotional because false equivalencies make me very very sad
Thanks for making me cry this morning

But just in case you really don’t get it, imagine a young black male arming himself with a AK type weapon (you could really just stop here if you wanted) and provoking confrontation at a Charlottesville type rally

I'm curious what you consider to be "provoking confrontation." Again, I think it was stupid for KR (or for that matter any other of the self-appointed car dealership security guards) to be there with openly-carried weapons. I think inserting that element makes a tense situation much more dangerous than it would have been otherwise. At the same time, I have a problem with that alone being considered "provocation" such that KR essentially loses his right to self-defense IF he is attacked without doing something more than standing around with a gun slung to his chest.

 

[kcirdor]

Exactly.

I mean if you want to compare these two events even though they’re not remotely similar… how many times did the police shoot at KR after he fired his gun? In the Coffee case they shot at him at least 10 times, killing his girlfriend. In the Stallings case, police shot him *first*.

I'd venture a guess, 10 years ago, it wouldn't matter if the police shot first. Now if we can just get the police to stop shooting.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Probably not ever will we have apples to apples, but if the black teen is there and the entire night is practically on video and it shows what they showed in this Case, then yea he would get off on self defense.

If only there wasn’t a century of data showing very unequal policing and sentencing, there might be a reason to buy your conclusion

 

[kcirdor]

If only there wasn’t a century of data showing very unequal policing and sentencing, there might be a reason to buy your conclusion

If only it was 2021 and not 1921.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

. I think inserting that element makes a tense situation much more dangerous than it would have been otherwise.

That’s the provocation

Our post 9/11 damaged national psyche has allowed for a lot of anxiety based gun laws/behavior
The Wisconsin law (et al) is a bad law, and KR was the inevitable and predictable result of a bad law

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I found the video of the comparison between a white man and a black man open carrying an AR15 for what it's worth. I don't know how much it really contributes to the conversation, but since I mentioned it before I figured I may as well post it.

Here's What Happens When a Black Man Open Carries Gun

A disturbing video contrasts police treatment of a white man and a black man carrying the same type of weapon in public.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[kcirdor]

I found the video of the comparison between a white man and a black man open carrying an AR15 for what it's worth. I don't know how much it really contributes to the conversation, but since I mentioned it before I figured I may as well post it.

Here's What Happens When a Black Man Open Carries Gun

A disturbing video contrasts police treatment of a white man and a black man carrying the same type of weapon in public.

www.thedailybeast.com

this isn't even apples and apples... but yes it is disturbing.