Another police shooting - this time in Wisconsin... (1 Viewer)

Grandadmiral

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Still waiting to hear more details, but watching this cop shot this guy in the back 7 times at close range is just wrong. Stories are saying he was trying to stop a fight and his kids were in the vehicle as he was shot. This is just wrong how this happened, like a forking execution. Hopefully bodycam video will be available to get a better story of what happened. Be warned the video is disturbing.


 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Totally agree. Louisiana is open carry but I would prefer concealed as some people just can’t handle open carry. Easier for me though given my experience.
It seems like an unnecessary risk. Particularly in a charged situation like going to a protest. Especially if you're allowed to kill someone if you feel like your life is in danger. And if you're arguing with someone who has a gun, you can easily feel like your life is in danger - so if you're also carrying, can you then shoot the person you're arguing with if they have a gun and you feel "threatened".

Just seems dangerous.

I'm curious to see what witness testimony says. Did Kyle threaten Rosenbaum? Or was it reasonable for Rosenbaum to feel threatened by Kyle? If so, then do you have a case where either one could have legally killed the other?
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Agree with this with one exception, walking around with it over your shoulder isn't brandishing. Brandishing would be walking around waving it at people in an aggressive manner. The same thing was said about Blake with the knife and the description didn't fit for either.
I agree, which is why I said open carry is different, but it's easy to feel threatened in a charged situation like a protest, if one person is carrying a firearm and you are unarmed.
 

James Spader

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It seems like an unnecessary risk. Particularly in a charged situation like going to a protest. Especially if you're allowed to kill someone if you feel like your life is in danger. And if you're arguing with someone who has a gun, you can easily feel like your life is in danger - so if you're also carrying, can you then shoot the person you're arguing with if they have a gun and you feel "threatened".

Just seems dangerous.

I'm curious to see what witness testimony says. Did Kyle threaten Rosenbaum? Or was it reasonable for Rosenbaum to feel threatened by Kyle? If so, then do you have a case where either one could have legally killed the other?
All the video I have been able to locate shows Rosenbaum being aggressive but I acknowledge more evidence will come out.

With that said, the world is better off with out Rosenbaum violating children. This really hits me so having any sympathy for that piece of work is really difficult.
 

James Spader

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It seems like an unnecessary risk. Particularly in a charged situation like going to a protest. Especially if you're allowed to kill someone if you feel like your life is in danger. And if you're arguing with someone who has a gun, you can easily feel like your life is in danger - so if you're also carrying, can you then shoot the person you're arguing with if they have a gun and you feel "threatened".

Just seems dangerous.

I'm curious to see what witness testimony says. Did Kyle threaten Rosenbaum? Or was it reasonable for Rosenbaum to feel threatened by Kyle? If so, then do you have a case where either one could have legally killed the other?
I would say this. If someone you are arguing with tries to take your weapon. You would have every right to disable them.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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I would say this. If someone you are arguing with tries to take your weapon. You would have every right to disable them.
Right, but if someone you are arguing with grabs their open carry weapon (maybe to adjust it or maybe to level it at you, you don't know), can you try to disarm them legally?
 

James Spader

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Right, but if someone you are arguing with grabs their open carry weapon (maybe to adjust it or maybe to level it at you, you don't know), can you try to disarm them legally?
Well, if you unholster your weapon, you better let that person know. Simply adjusting your waistband due to concealment would not rise to the level of disarming. At least for me. Context and nuance matters. Hope that helps a bit. Great questions!

edit: are you talking about a rifle or sidearm? I should have asked that.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Well, if you unholster your weapon, you better let that person know. Simply adjusting your waistband due to concealment would not rise to the level of disarming. At least for me. Context and nuance matters. Hope that helps a bit. Great questions!

edit: are you talking about a rifle or sidearm? I should have asked that.
So, I'm going with an open carry scenario. You're arguing with someone who has a long gun hanging off him. You are in each other's faces - he then grabs his gun. Now, it could be he's just adjusting it because he's been yelling at you and it's slipped it's position... but y'all are very heated, and you don't know what his intentions are. Are you legally able to try to disarm him? Or if you are concealed carry, are you legally allowed to draw and shoot?
 

Saint by the Bay

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It seems like an unnecessary risk. Particularly in a charged situation like going to a protest. Especially if you're allowed to kill someone if you feel like your life is in danger. And if you're arguing with someone who has a gun, you can easily feel like your life is in danger - so if you're also carrying, can you then shoot the person you're arguing with if they have a gun and you feel "threatened".

Just seems dangerous.

I'm curious to see what witness testimony says. Did Kyle threaten Rosenbaum? Or was it reasonable for Rosenbaum to feel threatened by Kyle? If so, then do you have a case where either one could have legally killed the other?
Speculation: I watched the videos of the kid from that night. He seemed timid, nervous and out of place. He was out there playing cop and I think the reality of the situation shook him. Based on what I saw I have serious doubts he was aggressive with anyone. Watch the videos. That wasn’t a gung ho cowboy, that was a nervous kid in over his head. I’d put more money on him trying to calm down something and getting caught in the middle than him threatening anyone.

Once again, just my speculation based on knowing human behavior and watching the video of the kid talking that night.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Speculation: I watched the videos of the kid from that night. He seemed timid, nervous and out of place. He was out there playing cop and I think the reality of the situation shook him. Based on what I saw I have serious doubts he was aggressive with anyone. Watch the videos. That wasn’t a gung ho cowboy, that was a nervous kid in over his head. I’d put more money on him trying to calm down something and getting caught in the middle than him threatening anyone.

Once again, just my speculation based on knowing human behavior and watching the video of the kid talking that night.
Yeah, the videos I've seen of Kyle he seemed more scared/nervous/excited than anything. And I did see a video of Rosenbaum being aggressive. So there are lots of possible scenarios.
 
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So, I'm going with an open carry scenario. You're arguing with someone who has a long gun hanging off him. You are in each other's faces - he then grabs his gun. Now, it could be he's just adjusting it because he's been yelling at you and it's slipped it's position... but y'all are very heated, and you don't know what his intentions are. Are you legally able to try to disarm him? Or if you are concealed carry, are you legally allowed to draw and shoot?
I would say, that the person who is open carrying should not be putting their hands on the gun unless that person had a valid reason to feel threatened and I'm not talking just yelling back and forth. I'd also say that if you're actively arguing with someone who is open carrying then it's easy to view you being aggressive.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Wow, watching some videos from that night. I will say there were some pretty level headed guys on both sides of that confrontation pulling people away. But holy crap, a bunch of angry people yelling and some of them armed just seems like a recipe for disaster.

I'm not sure if it's appropriate to laugh, but every now and then in some of those videos I'd see an armed guy and a BLM protester engaging in a what almost seems like a debate, like they were really going to be able to convince the other guy that they were right -- but it also highlights that I think a lot of them were there trying to do what they thought was right and they could "reach" the other side somehow.
 
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Speculation: I watched the videos of the kid from that night. He seemed timid, nervous and out of place. He was out there playing cop and I think the reality of the situation shook him. Based on what I saw I have serious doubts he was aggressive with anyone. Watch the videos. That wasn’t a gung ho cowboy, that was a nervous kid in over his head. I’d put more money on him trying to calm down something and getting caught in the middle than him threatening anyone.

Once again, just my speculation based on knowing human behavior and watching the video of the kid talking that night.
That's been exactly my thought as well, even the in over his head part. He seemed very naive to me. That, of course, does not absolve him from guilt.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Looking some more at some of the video from the gas station confrontation, and there was one armed guy (not Kyle) who looked super jittery, he kept jumping around and had both hands on his gun (pointed down, but in a position to quickly bring it up).

Rosenbaum was definitely super aggressive, but it also sounds like he was complaining about someone pointing a gun at him (I did not see anyone pointing a gun at anyone during that video).
 

James Spader

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So, I'm going with an open carry scenario. You're arguing with someone who has a long gun hanging off him. You are in each other's faces - he then grabs his gun. Now, it could be he's just adjusting it because he's been yelling at you and it's slipped it's position... but y'all are very heated, and you don't know what his intentions are. Are you legally able to try to disarm him? Or if you are concealed carry, are you legally allowed to draw and shoot?
Slipped its position and grabbing for the trigger would be my question to determine if it was reasonable. My M-16 has slipped my shoulder at times and I don’t recall every grabbing for the trigger but I would be willing to analyze the evidence.
 

James Spader

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Looking some more at some of the video from the gas station confrontation, and there was one armed guy (not Kyle) who looked super jittery, he kept jumping around and had both hands on his gun (pointed down, but in a position to quickly bring it up).

Rosenbaum was definitely super aggressive, but it also sounds like he was complaining about someone pointing a gun at him (I did not see anyone pointing a gun at anyone during that video).
I saw the same thing. I was surprised that no one addressed his usage of the “n” word in that crowd.
 

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