Another police shooting - this time in Wisconsin... (4 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

People always make excuses for why they accept the horrible things. I’m less concerned about whether it makes a difference for a specific event and more concerned with, even if it makes a difference, we’re still stuck with a large number of people living amongst us that are willing to brush off that ideology as acceptable, along with all the other horrible things that aren’t deal breakers.

I’m actually fascinated, in a morbid kind of way, to see how much some of these people are willing to accept.

The thing is, I abhor white supermacy, but I'm still a conservative. Notice, I didn't say Republican.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I guess the question is whether white supermacy as an ideology is representative of conservatism. And I'm saying that it's undoubtedly not. Are they influencing conservatives, probably, but conservatism isn't driven by that. I'd argie that the Republican party has lost their way and what passes for conservatism today isn't conservatism in a lot of ways. Which is part of why I'm no longer a Republican.

I'm saying you can be and remain a conservative while disavowing white supermacy. My vote isn't a referendum on that issue. Actually it would depend on what I'm voting on. Locally, statewide and nationally all have their own specific issues and my votes are typically all over the map. But that's just me.

i missed the part about conservatism - i just picked up during the fbi/white supremacy thing

i'll have to go back and look at that bc i'm not sure what conservatism has to do with the conversation - the only conservatives in politics now are some right of center dems and the never trumpers who have left the R party
but in terms of anything with political heft or even vision, conservatism is not a player right now (i have many who have expressed reservations about getting in bed with the Project Lincoln people - the fear is they will buddy up with Dems now and then re-aim their guns AT dems starting in January)

but i have a bit of pushback with about your 'isn't a referendum' thing - sure it is
the single issue voting idea is both inaccurate and highly corrosive
we vote for the platform, bc that is what the person is trying to enact
and vote carries the responsibility of the elected party and not just the line-item that we agree with

 

[Taurus]

I’m actually fascinated, in a morbid kind of way, to see how much some of these people are willing to accept.

This much:

 

[DaveXA]

i missed the part about conservatism - i just picked up during the fbi/white supremacy thing

i'll have to go back and look at that bc i'm not sure what conservatism has to do with the conversation - the only conservatives in politics now are some right of center dems and the never trumpers who have left the R party
but in terms of anything with political heft or even vision, conservatism is not a player right now (i have many who have expressed reservations about getting in bed with the Project Lincoln people - the fear is they will buddy up with Dems now and then re-aim their guns AT dems starting in January)

but i have a bit of pushback with about your 'isn't a referendum' thing - sure it is
the single issue voting idea is both inaccurate and highly corrosive
we vote for the platform, bc that is what the person is trying to enact
and vote carries the responsibility of the elected party and not just the line-item that we agree with

But, isn't not voting for a platform because of a single issue sort of the same thing. Just opposite? There are problems and positives in any given platform. That said, there are probably some issues where I might not vote for a platform because of a big enough single issue. If I feel the platfom has been hijacked by a fringe group, I'd be far less inclined to vote for the platform.

I do think it's likely my voting is going to be another mishmash of votes based on how I feel on those issues.

I brought the conservative aspect just to highlight that caring about race issues should transcend political parties or leanings. That's really what I think I was trying to get at.

I don't really know anything about the Project Lincoln people, but their ads seem pretty potent. I don't know if they're having the impact they're shooting for though. I guess we'll see in 2 months or so.

 

[Saintman2884]

We don’t need police reform now, we needed it 150 years ago
We’ve needed health reform for, what, 70 years?
It’s not the opposition that keeps us from it - opposition is usually rather small (but obviously well funded)
No
The reason we don’t have programs of social humanity is because of the people who demand the perfect instead of the overall good
The people who want to slow walk every single tiny inch - and then all of the righteous momentum is gone

Idealism aside, even health care and police reform takes money, funding, debate over its structure takes time. Programs of “social humanity” aren’t cheap and I’m not certainly naive or foolish to believe good intentions without decent or good plans to make it effective and durable is doable.

All the best, idealistic intentions or ideals to help overall good in society won’t work for long-haul if there not done right or set up effectively. You complain about some people expecting perfection, I don’t either that’s God’s work. We can realistically shoot for good or decent, that’s seems reasonable to me.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Just a question that I was wondering about

There are 2 parts to this issue - the act and the consequences

If black people are three times (not sure the exact statistics) more likely to be killed/brutalized by the police than whites what about the consequences?

What happens to those cops in those cases?

Are the cops who killed/brutalized whites three times more likely to be suspended/fired/charged or convicted than those who kill blacks? (again reinforcing that white lives matter more), or is the punishment rate the same?

As far as I know I haven't seen anything on this, sorry it was was already discussed

 

[Eeyore]

This much:

Anti-lockdown protesters were using the phrase in Illinois back in March. The poster(s) were aimed at Illinois' Jewish governor.

 

[Optimus Prime]

It's easy to hate online. You can't see the person or face any consequences. You can speak in broad generalities without assigning a face or voice to the person.

It's different in person because that's another human being, flesh and blood. It's hard to express hate in those situations because you're not hating an abstract concept, but a person.

My girlfriend says often

"It's hard to hate up close"

 

[Saintman2884]

You do realize these same concepts apply or happen in Internet message forums or NFL fan sites like Saintsreport when posters are condescending, rude, say mean-spirited, spiteful things just to win arguments in EE threads on social or political issues? I know Ive seen more than my fair share witnessimg being said or told to me over the past 17 years as a SR member and 95% probably never happens face-to-face because they couldn't use broad generalities at an actual flesh and blood human being.

I would also venture to say, Optimus and Saint, that same analogies apply to same posters would never act, talk to, or be as disrespectful to these same posters or similar people they'd run into with similar views in public places like bars, supermarkets, or other places of business.

Oh, I agree with you both wholeheartedly on this. In more ways then one.

 

[SaintJ]

My girlfriend says often

"It's hard to hate up close"

Wait until she is your wife.

You would be amazed at how quickly people can develop skills.

 

[Bishop]

never

 

[Optimus Prime]

No charges
=============

No charges against Wisconsin officer who shot Jacob Blake

KENOSHA, Wis. (AP) — A Wisconsin prosecutor declined Tuesday to file charges against a white police officer who shot a Black man in the back in Kenosha, concluding he couldn't disprove the officer's contention that he acted in self-defense because he feared the man would stab him.

apnews.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

How many times do we need to see this happen?!
==============

A Black man who had run naked through the streets of a western New York city died of asphyxiation after a group of police officers put a hood over his head, then pressed his face into the pavement for two minutes, according to video and records released Wednesday by the man’s family.

Daniel Prude died March 30 after he was taken off life support, seven days after the encounter with police in Rochester. His death received no public attention until Wednesday, when his family held a news conference and released police body camera video and written reports they obtained through a public records request.

“I placed a phone call for my brother to get help. Not for my brother to get lynched,” Prude’s brother, Joe Prude, said at a news conference.

“How did you see him and not directly say, ‘The man is defenseless, buck naked on the ground. He’s cuffed up already. Come on.’ How many more brothers gotta die for society to understand that this needs to stop?”

Video in Black man's suffocation shows cops put hood on him

A Black man who had run naked through the streets of a western New York city died of asphyxiation after a group of police officers put a hood over his head, then pressed his face into the pavement for two minutes, according to video and records released Wednesday by the man's family.

apnews.com

there is no ambiguity about this one
they were called bc of mental health issues, found a naked/unarmed man and in due course, killed him
that's 2nd degree, life, no parole

No criminal charges
======================
Police officers shown on body camera video holding Daniel Prude down naked and handcuffed on a city street last winter until he stopped breathing will not face criminal charges, according to a grand jury decision announced Tuesday.

The 41-year-old Black man’s death last March sparked nightly protests in Rochester, New York, after the video was released nearly six months later, with demonstrators demanding a reckoning for police and city officials.

State Attorney General Letitia James, whose office took over the prosecution and impaneled a grand jury, said “the criminal justice system is badly in need of reform.”


“While I know that the Prude family, the Rochester community, and communities across the country will rightfully be devastated and disappointed, we have to respect this decision,” James said in a prepared release. “Serious reform is needed, not only at the Rochester Police Department, but to our criminal justice system as a whole.”...........

No charges against officers involved in Daniel Prude's death

Police officers who put a hood over the head of a mentally distraught Black man, then pressed his body against the pavement until he stopped breathing will not face criminal charges after a grand jury declined to indict them, New York's attorney general announced Tuesday.

apnews.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

A Wisconsin judge ruled Monday that attorneys in the Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial could refer to the men the teen shot in Kenosha, Wis., last year as “rioters,” “looters” and “arsonists.”

They could not, however, describe Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber, who were killed, and Gaige Grosskreutz, who was wounded, as “victims” because the term was “loaded,” the judge said……..

Although such rulings are not uncommon in trials in which there is a dispute over self-defense, prosecutors suggested the judge was employing a double standard by allowing Rosenbaum, Huber and Grosskreutz to be called “rioters,” “looters” and “arsonists” but not “victims.”

Assistant District Attorney Thomas Binger questioned how Rosenbaum and Huber, in particular, could be so disparaged, given that they would never have the chance to defend themselves.


“The terms that I’m identifying here such as rioter, looter and arsonist are as loaded, if not more loaded, than the term ‘victim,’ ” Binger said…….

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/26/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-judge-victims/

 

[Big_L]

A Wisconsin judge ruled Monday that attorneys in the Kyle Rittenhouse murder trial could refer to the men the teen shot in Kenosha, Wis., last year as “rioters,” “looters” and “arsonists.”

They could not, however, describe Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber, who were killed, and Gaige Grosskreutz, who was wounded, as “victims” because the term was “loaded,” the judge said……..

Although such rulings are not uncommon in trials in which there is a dispute over self-defense, prosecutors suggested the judge was employing a double standard by allowing Rosenbaum, Huber and Grosskreutz to be called “rioters,” “looters” and “arsonists” but not “victims.”

Assistant District Attorney Thomas Binger questioned how Rosenbaum and Huber, in particular, could be so disparaged, given that they would never have the chance to defend themselves.


“The terms that I’m identifying here such as rioter, looter and arsonist are as loaded, if not more loaded, than the term ‘victim,’ ” Binger said…….

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/26/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-judge-victims/

They are employing every tactic to get that kid acquitted.